Atheism

@Owen phil,

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if we assume the premises

And if the premise is wrong ?

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Evidently you are not aware of the rule 'disjunctive syllogism'.

And you have proven your evidence collection to be faulty. Now prove to me that somewhere in an infinite universe there is not a species of intelligent matresses living in a swamp. May I use your words ?

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I don't expect you can answer

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@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

I hope that this sheds some light on things

I appreciate that you're hoping. But no, you haven't shed any light on anything. There is absolutely nothing I see clearer now than I saw it before reading your post. Sorry if that sounds mean, but it's just the way it is.

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@Francis,

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I, on the other hand, am sure it's utter bullshit but they affect my life..

A butterfly flapping its wings on the other side of the world affects your life.....care to elaborate on how in this instance ?

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@spendius,

Your observations are also wrong; I've never reached any "heights of intellectual achievement." But, I can assume with your brain capacity, it might seem that way.

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@Intrepid,

If you are tired, why respond?

From the NYT:

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Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer

By BENEDICT CAREY
Published: March 31, 2006

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

My statement:

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Prayer doesn't work.

With me so far?

NYT article continued:
And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

\\\\\\\\

The researchers asked the members of three congregations — St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Mass.; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City — to deliver the prayers, using the patients' first names and the first initials of their last names.

The congregations were told that they could pray in their own ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."

Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not.

[/quote]

I have also read some time ago that when the patient prayed for self-healing, it worked.

These are two different circumstances on the subject of prayer and healing. Most investigations - not connected to any religious institution - have shown prayer does not work.

Prayer for self-healing "seems" to work. I can't seem to find any article in support of this claim.

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@Thomas,

I do understand it was not directed at you it was for anyone who cares and has the ability to advance their way of thinking.
The thoughts that I share are not mine for the most part but of those who have labored hard so that you do not have to.

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@Ionus,

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Oylok: I have found that unless I resolve once and for all that God does not exist,

Ionus: Even though the impossibility of proving a negative makes your resolution silly ?

Suppose I told you, Ionus, that all you had to do to unlock the meaning of life was circumnavigate the globe 50 times over the course of the next year. Then you would understand everything. There would be no way for you to prove I was wrong, and resolving that I was wrong would be "silly", I guess? But would you immediately start travelling? Would you even give the idea a moment's thought? I have to rule out "God", because I consider Him a waste of time.

But real freedom does not come just from rejecting God. It comes when you throw out all the silly meanings of life we are supposed to believe in--like hedonism, the selfish-gene paradigm, etc. Once you've expelled from your mind the possibility of life having any intrinsic meaning at all, you can ask yourself what in life matters most to you and then go after it.

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@Oylok,

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There would be no way for you to prove I was wrong

Agreed.

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resolving that I was wrong would be "silly", I guess?

Thats also correct. I can not decide one way or the other so I remain neutral.

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all you had to do to unlock the meaning of life was circumnavigate the globe 50 times over the course of the next year......Would you even give the idea a moment's thought

Will you be paying for it ? Travel is broadening. Just because you found meaning that way doesnt mean I will.....but I can not say it doesnt work. That would be silly.

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But real freedom does not come just from rejecting God. It comes when you throw out all the silly meanings of life we are supposed to believe in--like hedonism, the selfish-gene paradigm, etc. Once you've expelled from your mind the possibility of life having any intrinsic meaning at all, you can ask yourself what in life matters most to you and then go after it.

So you are not against religion, you are just against people who dont follow your religion ?

1 Reply

@Oylok,

You've inspired me to be overly cute, but...

'Real freedom is only possible once you realise real freedom is impossible' - Hingehead c2010.

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Francis wrote:
I, on the other hand, am sure it's utter bullshit but they affect my life..
A butterfly flapping its wings on the other side of the world affects your life.....care to elaborate on how in this instance ?

I'll elaborate moderately: Every time I came around someone I cared for and religion was involved, I suffered.

Adversly, most of the time, the butterfly effect acts on me in a manner that makes me happier (I'm happy with the Brownian movement).

This also replies Spendi's question about how religion affects my life: for the better or for the worse - If we consider that better is happier and worse is less happy, then it's obvious that my life is happier without religion..

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@Ionus,

Quote:

Oylok: But real freedom does not come just from rejecting God. It comes when you throw out all the silly meanings of life we are supposed to believe in--like hedonism, the selfish-gene paradigm, etc. Once you've expelled from your mind the possibility of life having any intrinsic meaning at all, you can ask yourself what in life matters most to you and then go after it.

Ionus: So you are not against religion, you are just against people who dont follow your religion ?

My religion? What do you mean by that? I wasn't aware I had any religion. The closest I come to religion is that I am rather fond Sartre and his existentialist ideas, although I have never really taken the time even to read all that much about them. Human existence supposedly precedes essence (i.e. life's meaning); we are here, and we each have to decide for ourselves why. Perhaps I should take a little time and read Being and Nothingness.

And I certainly don't feel any need to turn everyone on Earth into an "existentialist." God forbid! You would have all sorts of small-minded, selfish people running around grinning at each other, motivated by no moral sentiment but rather by a diabolical "will to power." You would have a world of people like the kind Nietzsche describes in Beyond Good and Evil, which is an idea I find sickening. We are much safer if most people subscribe to established religions which provide some kind of ready-made compass for them to steer by. History has shown as much. (In anticipation of how you will probably respond, let me add: no, I don't think all religious people are small-minded or selfish, but if someone does match that description, he sure as hell better do what the Bible tells him, or we're in trouble.)

But if you are going reject God, an idea that at least has some honour to it, then it is absolutely silly, in my opinion, to replace God with some ideal like hedonism or the notion that in essence human beings are nothing else besides survival-machines for strands of self-replicating DNA.

1 Reply

@Francis,

Happiness means dont change the status quo....unhappiness means evolve, change....survival is unhappy, just existing is happy.

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@Oylok,

You think because you dont have a church you dont have a religion ? You have justified your life to yourself..... that is a religious belief. You think you know what happens to you when you die...that is a religious belief. You have a modus operandi for life...that is a religious belief.

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Ionus wrote:

Happiness means dont change the status quo

Such statements make me think we don't live on the same planet...

1 Reply

@Francis,

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it's obvious that my life is happier without religion..

How do you know? You can't try life without religion. You can only pretend to do at the level of the selfish individual gene.

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Every time I came around someone I cared for and religion was involved, I suffered.

And it was never your own fault I suppose. The first rule of relationship counselling is that both parties are to blame.

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@Francis,

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Quote:
Happiness means dont change the status quo
Such statements make me think we don't live on the same planet...

So if you are happy you change as much as possible ? In the hope some of the changes make you miserable....I can believe that about you.

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Spendi wrote:

Francis wrote:
it's obvious that my life is happier without religion..
How do you know? You can't try life without religion. You can only pretend to do at the level of the selfish individual gene.

Spendi,
Stop pretending that you know life better than I do.

I've had experiences on both sides and I can tell..

Spendi wrote:

Francis wrote:
Every time I came around someone I cared for and religion was involved, I suffered.

And it was never your own fault I suppose. The first rule of relationship counselling is that both parties are to blame.

Again, stop attributing me feelings you know nothing about.

I'm the first to recognise my errors, mistakes, limitations and shortcomings..

It hurts a lot but I have some redeeming qualities too, I think...

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Ionus wrote:

Francis wrote:
Ionus wrote:
Happiness means dont change the status quo

Such statements make me think we don't live on the same planet...

So if you are happy you change as much as possible ? In the hope some of the changes make you miserable....I can believe that about you.

What you hope, re my happiness is of small concern to me.

To me, happiness resides in the movement, the renewing of everyday's life.

As to a relationship, its success and therefore the happiness resulting, is the fruit of its daily improvement, making it brighter and stronger..

1 Reply

@Francis,

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What you hope, re my happiness is of small concern to me.

You have misread....I expressed no hope about your happiness at all.

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To me, happiness resides in the movement, the renewing of everyday's life. As to a relationship, its success and therefore the happiness resulting, is the fruit of its daily improvement, making it brighter and stronger..

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