So much for our aid being welcome

@hawkeye10,

more excuse making

Quote:

Other commentators have drawn different lessons. David Brooks faults Haitian culture. "Some cultures are more progress-resistant than others, and a horrible tragedy was just exacerbated by one of them," he wrote in the New York Times. Anne Applebaum argued in The Post that this was "a man-made disaster" and that the earthquake's impact "was multiplied many, many times by the weakness of civil society and the absence of the rule of law."

There's some truth in all of the secular explanations. But they leave out the most painful and perplexing factor we encounter whenever terrible things happen: bad luck. The same problem arises when catastrophic events befall people we love -- a life-threatening disease, say. We look for a rational explanation of why this person got cancer, but his neighbor, who has all the same risk factors, didn't. Often, the most honest answer is: It just happened.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/20/AR2010012003893.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Haiti did not become deforested, obscenely corrupt, without government, and mired in grinding poverty by bad luck. Nor by being abused by the rest of us. They did it to themselves, and they can undo it to themselves, with our help if they should want it.

By they have got to want it.

2 Replies

@BillRM,

Quote:

My friend you have proven beyond question that you are a sociopath who have no normal feelings toward your fellow man or woman or child.

I prefer to frame it as a belief in personal responsibility. It is your job to take care of your needs before it is my job. If you want my help I am likely to give it, but if you don't want to make a better life for yourself don't come whining to me about your situation.

My brand of socialism is about pooling resources and working together, I have no time for the immature or the lazy.

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

They did it to themselves, and they can undo it to themselves, with our help if they should want it.

By they have got to want it.

This notion that peoples in a corrupt culture just don't want their government to be fixed is risible.

I've lived in very corrupt places, the people hate it. But the poverty is a boon to the corruption which is a boon to the poverty. And the corruption helps suppress attempts to be rid of it.

You talk about eliminating endemic corruption like someone who knows absolutely nothing about it.

P.S. you also show little knowledge of Haitian history because they certainly had help from foreigners in their deforestation and the reparations to France didn't help the poverty any either.

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

Haiti did not become deforested, obscenely corrupt, without government, and mired in grinding poverty by bad luck. Nor by being abused by the rest of us. They did it to themselves, and they can undo it to themselves, with our help if they should want it.

By they have got to want it.

So their ancestors throw themselves on the slave ships and then work themselves to death to the tune of 30,000 a year for decade after decade.

Then they insist on paying a 100 million or so to France in order to keep their freedom.

Then they insist on having others including the US invaded them and control them for more decades.

And then these evil people cause three hurricanes to hit their island and then a major earthquake.

It is all their fault down to the children now dying by the thousands. and an evil plot to take away your property rights.

0 Replies

@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

You talk about eliminating endemic corruption like someone who knows absolutely nothing about it.

Bullshit, if Haitians were faced with a dictator like Saddam who used terror to enforce corruption, or the secret police of the Shaw of Iran or the East Germans who in an organized way subverted the will of the people your point would have some validity. There is nothing preventing the Haitians from reforming their society other than lack of will.

2 Replies

@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

This notion that peoples in a corrupt culture just don't want their government to be fixed is risible.

This notion that people in utterly corrupt situations actually have some control, or influence, is utterly ridiculous. They are victims of the corrupt culture, they have little control or influence over how they would prefer to live their own lives. Maybe the dream of having any influence at all (on the basis of their life experience) is beyond their comprehension? I don't know.

But the sooner we separate the ordinary people from their corrupt controllers, the better!

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Bullshit, if Haitians were faced with a dictator like Saddam who used terror to enforce corruption, or the secret police of the Shaw of Iran or the East Germans who in an organized way subverted the will of the people your point would have some validity. There is nothing preventing the Haitians from reforming their society other than lack of will.

This just reinforces the point, such authoritarianism is actually one of the easiest ways to get rid of the corruption (just as it is one of the easiest ways to reinforce it). Poverty causes high opportunities for corruption and when it's endemic the democratic processes are affected as well.

You talk about it as if they can just elect their way out of corruption and that they haven't done so means they just don't want it enough, and that is obvious ignorance to people familiar with what living in such conditions is like.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Lord we seem to had both German troops and Canadian troops and Canadian warships involved to!

I do not worry about the German or even Mexico troops but having evil Canadians on our soil is too damn must in my opinion<grin>.

It seems I was incorrect about No foreign troops, but we turn away some countries offers. I cannot offer any insight as to why some countries were given a go and others a no go.

T
K
O

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

Is it not about time that there is some "international treaty for good samaritans?" Then those countries that signed the treaty would know what was expected of them during any international relief effort. And, any country receiving relief effort would need to abide by any treaty's paradigm, if that country signed the treaty.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

I have no time for the immature or the lazy.

You mean children and babies and women and others who had buildings fall on them in a 7 scale earthquake are lazy????!!!!!!???????

1 Reply

Quote:

or the secret police of the Shaw of Iran

That is really quite cute.

0 Replies

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

@hawkeye10,
Quote:

I have no time for the immature or the lazy.

You mean children and babies and women and others who had buildings fall on them in a 7 scale earthquake are lazy????!!!!!!???????

This is the guy who thinks the Germans had "1.5 years of bombing" in World War 2.

1 Reply

@contrex,

Quote:

This is the guy who thinks the Germans had "1.5 years of bombing" in World War 2.

If you want to dispute the facts as I have presented them you know where to find me.

1 Reply

THis just gets stranger and stranger...

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/01/21/chavez_us_weapon_test_caused_haiti_earthquake.html

Apparenly a US Navy weapon caused the earthquake.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

If you want to dispute the facts as I have presented them you know where to find me.

I already did dispute them. You did not care to reply.

1 Reply

@contrex,

alright. I did not see that.

I was clearly talking about the nighttime carpet bombing of German cities, which had as one of its main purposes to demoralize the German people. The precision bombing by the Americans during the daytime had not at all the same effect, as they took out military targets and did not impact the civilians anywhere near as much. The carpet bombing of civilians started sometime in 1943, so my 18 months could be off by six months or so, not a big deal in my mind.

The Germans went through this hell night after night for 18-24 months, an still they did not become basket cases like the Haitians. For all of the whining by the Haitians about their ill treatment they have never been beat upon like the Germans were 1943-1945.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

if Haitians were faced with a dictator like Saddam who used terror to enforce corruption, or the secret police of the Shaw of Iran or the East Germans who in an organized way subverted the will of the people your point would have some validity. There is nothing preventing the Haitians from reforming their society other than lack of will. [/quote

You had not clue about Haitian history as in Papa Doc and Baby Doc for example and then a military government after them......

But then you are an asshole..............

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Quote:

You had not clue about Haitian history as in Papa Doc and Baby Doc for example and then a military government after them......

if you want to argue that they were not supported by the people you are free to do so. Your opinion is not however well supported by the facts, in my opinion. Baby Doc became leader in 1971, it was not until the early 80's that be lost significant support within Haiti, and even just last week Haitians were heard to be requesting that he return and take over the rebuilding effort.

Kindly bring facts to the table, spewage of well worn propaganda seems to be all that you can handle however.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

You know hawkeyse it would be amusing to run a test of your theory that anyone can do well under any set of conditions if they were not just lazy bums.

We would start this test by dropping you in the middle of Port-au-Prince with just a set of cloths on your back right next the biggest pile of dead bodies we could find.

Then we could watch your raised in Haitian society and when you became the supreme leader of Haiti, we would allow you to come home.

A few rules you could not call home for help from anyone and you could not receive any international aid not even a bottle of water as to do so would be taking someone property rights away from them and we surely would not wish to do that.

Sound like fun to me.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

they have never been beat upon like the Germans were 1943-1945.

....but they couldn't afford to mope and whine. They had 6 million Jews to get rid of! (It is easy to see how much you admire the Germans of 1933-45.)

1 Reply

So much for our aid being welcome

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