29
   

It's raining! It's raining!

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 04:50 am
@tsarstepan,
You could say that, tsar.
If I'd written the AGE newspaper's headline! Wink

Crikey, it's frustrating, I tell you!
More rain, more!!
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 05:24 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
That's the exciting headline after all that rain! Neutral
The best things have looked for quite some time!
I wonder what it would take to get them to 75%, 85% or maybe (gasp) 95% full?

Those socialist bastards running Australia probably just built the dams too big, that's all. (Can you tell I'm getting Americanized?)
NettieK
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 05:25 am
Oh well, a soggy melbourne cup will be something different after all those dry years we have had. Doesn't worry me in particular really. Not a race goer, but I have the day off work. I don't even bet. But I do drop everything to watch the race.
It is so good to see melbournes catchments half full, there should still be quite a bit more run off in to them still. An excellent start to Summer.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 05:31 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
Those socialist bastards running Australia probably just built the dams too big, that's all. (Can you tell I'm getting Americanized?)


I didn't see it this way before, Thomas!
I think you may be onto something here! Idea
Razz
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 05:32 am
@msolga,
Rememmber that the water level in a dam reflelcts the ground water levels around it. SO, I saw that your ground-water levels have been really low for a number of years. Itll take months and months of rains to undo that. I hope you get there. You need a good water reserve.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 05:39 am
@NettieK,
Quote:
Oh well, a soggy melbourne cup will be something different after all those dry years we have had. Doesn't worry me in particular really.

Nor me, Nettie!
(though quite a few may have to change their frock choices at the last minute! Wink )
Confession: I've never, ever been to the Cup.
The holiday (when I worked full-time) was always good, though! Smile
A barbecue at a friend's place tomorrow.
Maybe a soggy one, but never mind ...

Quote:
It is so good to see melbournes catchments half full

It certainly beats 37%, which was the case not so long ago ... agreed.
I just wish the state government hadn't relaxed our water usage restrictions.
Way too soon!
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 05:48 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Rememmber that the water level in a dam reflelcts the ground water levels around it. SO, I saw that your ground-water levels have been really low for a number of years. Itll take months and months of rains to undo that.


Yeah, I know, farmer.
Ya just get kinda impatient after years & years of this.
<tap, tap, tap>
The think the wettest spring in years & years, this year, has got me a bit over-exited! Wink
Quote:
I hope you get there.

Me, too.

Quote:
You need a good water reserve.

The state government is in the process of building a (wildy unpopular) saline plant. A private corporation has the contract. The price of water, to pay for this, is going to sky rocket!
But that's yet another water story. Sigh.
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 06:01 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

msolga wrote:
That's the exciting headline after all that rain! Neutral
The best things have looked for quite some time!
I wonder what it would take to get them to 75%, 85% or maybe (gasp) 95% full?

Those socialist bastards running Australia probably just built the dams too big, that's all. (Can you tell I'm getting Americanized?)


Oh if only somewhat socialist bastards WERE running Australia.

msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 06:06 am
@dlowan,
You have a point there, Deb.
It would certainly be an interesting experience! Wink
(especially when it comes the cost of essential services, for plebby little folk.)
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 06:49 am
@msolga,
Oops.
The state government is in the process of building a (wildly unpopular) desalination plant, I meant to say.
(Typing & posting too fast.)
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 07:45 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
The state government is in the process of building a (wildly unpopular) desalination plant, I meant to say.

Now that's interesting. Why is it unpopular? When clearwater is in short supply because of prolonged droughts, doesn't seawater desalination make good sense?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 07:59 am
@Thomas,
no. There are sevral thousand unndersea springs that discharge water into the ocean basins and these can be tapped waaay cheaper than desal (per gallon that is)

TApping subocean springs __Capital, very high; O&M almost zero

DESAL PLANTS-CAPITAL high, O&M DISASTROUSLY HIGH
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 04:16 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Why is it unpopular?

Sigh.
(Do you really want to know, Thomas? Wink )
Crikey, where to start?

First, the state government procrastinated for way too long before finally addressing the issue of ensuring adequate future water supply for Melbourne (& the rest of the state, as well). It took years of serious drought before the government acted. Then, after the government opted for the desalination plant "solution", there has been considerable heated community debate about whether the plant is necessary at all, or whether it's the most appropriate option for our future needs.

Then there is the incredible cost of the project (believed to be around $4.8 billion just to build the plant & make it functional). The full details of the contract between the government & the private consortium involved (AquaSure) are still secret, deemed "private in confidence". Yet the guaranteed profit levels of this company (estimated at around $570 million a year for the next 30 years, regardless of how much water is delivered) has been underwritten by the Victorian taxpayers. The cost to the state will be huge. The cost of water to ordinary householders will also increase hugely as a result.

Then, there are a number of serious environmental concerns. The plant will consume huge amounts of energy when it is running. It will most likely powered by brown coal. Then there’s the waste from the plant & the concerns about pollution of the ocean. Say nothing of degradation of the environment to accommodate the establishment of the plant ...

Then, (wait for it!) There's the secret (till exposed not so long ago) agreement between the consortium (AquaSure) & the Victorian Police, to provide the consortium with detailed information about anti-desalination community groups, obtained by police spying. Apparently the consortium feared “civil disruption” by protesters. (It was certainly right about community protest!) It refused to agree to the contract with the government unless police agreed to provide them with data—text, photos and audio and video recordings— of community opponents. (Can you believe this? I can’t. Many Victorians can’t. )

Apart from these worries, there are quite a few other concerns. There’s also the worry of sustainable population growth. The state government has aggressively advocated a huge increase in the population of Melbourne over the next 20+ years. Many believe that this is not only undesirable, but unsustainable. The desalination plant is part of the plan to provide water for the extra millions of planned residents for the city. We are already bulging at the seams now.

So you see why quite a few people might not be too happy?
It's a can of worms. Neutral
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 05:12 pm
Wow. I can't believe the Victorian government literally sold out your freedom of speech and freedom to protest to a commercial company.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 05:15 pm
@farmerman,
I'm surprised to hear about the huge costs. The last time I searched the literature with Google Scholar (maybe five years ago), typical costs cited for desalinated seawater ran around 50-100 US cents per cubic meter. That's more expensive than most clearwater sources, but doesn't seem prohibitive. Are y0u saying those costs are misleading?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 05:19 pm
@Thomas,
Permacep and several other techniques require several backwashes a cycle and the O&M was never calculated properly(Ill take . Salt (KCl and NaCl) are soluble to an extreme. the pwermaceps get wasted really quickly. The best techniques are still solar ditillation which requires huge amounts of land and getting rid of all that salt. Course Ill listen to a well crafted remonstrance about my head being up my ass but Im ready for a small bear on this. Ocean springs can be collected via a surprisingly easy piece of equipment. The water head drives up a pipe with a gizmo like an upside down funnel set over the spring discharge. The head and the bernoulli principle can push the column quite high and bladder "wet wells" can store aan unlimited amount as needed.
We installed several spring discharge points off Saudi and Israel and they worked quite well. Even a small amount of rain can get into a a suboceanic spring. We were collecting water that was thousands of years old(And it still tasted like the day it was labeled)
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 05:23 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Permacep and several other techniques require several backwashes a cycle and the O&M was never calculted properly. Salt (KCl and NaCl) are soluble to an extreme. the pwermaceps get wasted really quickly. The best techniques are still solar ditillation which requires huge amounts of land and getting rid of all that salt

So what are you saying? That those 50-100 cents per cubic meter aren't accounting for the real-world operating costs?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 05:40 pm
@Thomas,
2 to 4 $ (per) thousand gal is above the raw water cost we are used to.(Cubic meter is 262 gal at 60 degrees F) The cost of water is , (on average) about 13$ a thousand gal for a water "Authority" (That includes all costs plus debt service, permits etc etc). The pwr gallon costs for tapping undersea springs actually goes down as the system keeps qworking
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2010 01:31 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
Wow. I can't believe the Victorian government literally sold out your freedom of speech and freedom to protest to a commercial company.

You are not alone in thinking that, Thomas.
But it has not stopped people from protesting.

Something is pretty rotten in the state of Victoria. Which is very sad & quite alarming.
This (desalination plant) issue & how it has been so badly mismanaged by the government is just one of many issues of huge concern right now. Worrying times in "the Garden State".
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2010 01:45 am
@msolga,
Quote:
The desal cup runneth over with our cash
September 27, 2010/the AGE

The Wonthaggi desalination plant is a monument to bad government and financial chicanery. It seems fantastic but the $4.8 billion that AquaSure (Macquarie Bank, Suez and Thiess) raised on international capital markets to fund the plant was guaranteed by the government.

The deal was undertaken without proper process, which would have involved an inquiry into whether the water the plant was designed to produce -- 40 per cent of Melbourne's annual consumption - was needed, and if so, were there cheaper alternatives? (There were plenty of experts pointing out these alternatives, but they were studiously ignored.)

The $4.8 billion AquaSure borrowed comprised $3.5 billion to build the plant, a cost that was well above the going rate for this type of facility, and a further $1.3 billion to service their own equity in the project.

An astute reader might ask how much equity capital the AquaSure partners stumped up to finance the project. The answer appears to be almost nothing, apart from the $12 to register the company.

Who needs to stump up equity when the government is guaranteeing the debt that finances the equity?

After the money was raised, the government proudly announced the capital guarantee was withdrawn. Most outsiders thought this had been replaced with a ''take or pay'' contract for the water. The government denied this, but refused to say what agreement it had made instead, saying it was ''commercial-in-confidence''.

What it said was the ''net present cost of the water was $1.37 a kilolitre'', which was unbelievable, but apparently it satisfied the Liberal Party, supposedly the party of financial acuity.

The Greens had the cheek to ask what the net present cost meant in terms of the actual money paid for the water. They were fobbed off, along with others who asked why the emperor was naked.

But now we know. Even if the plant produces nothing, the government will be forced to pay under its contract $570 million a year for 30 years. This is equal to $3.80 a kilolitre without the supply of any water.

The figures were buried in the Department of Sustainability and Environment annual report tabled under hundreds of other reports.

But there is more.

If the plant is turned on, it uses electricity. The government promised it would be carbon neutral. This means consuming power at the renewable wind farm rate, which is $125 a megawatt hour compared to base rate coal-fired power of $35.

Of course, it will really be powered by brown coal, probably from Hazelwood, the closest and cheapest power station. There are two reasons for this: wind power is intermittent and grid wind output calculations are based on 8 per cent of the wind farm capacity.

This means the 98 megawatts required to run the desal plant and pump water across Melbourne can't be supplied by existing or planned wind farms.

It looks as if the renewable energy charge is a sham to get renewable energy credits to justify using coal-fired power to placate an electorate concerned about global warming.

To calculate the cost of desal water to the household, we have to add in the cost of electricity and the mark-up of at least 25 per cent each for Melbourne Water and the three water retailers.

This means the desal water cost to the end user is $1.1 billion based on the output of 150 gigalitres a year.

This cost of desal water will be $7.05 a kilolitre compared to $1.20 now. Because the desal water will constitute about 40 per cent of Melbourne's water supply, the average cost of water in 2012 will be $4.14 a kilolitre.

This is embarrassing for the Essential Services Commission, which set the price of water in 2012 at $2.20.

It is no wonder the retailers are talking about different tariffs such as high security, scarcity and environment tariffs.

What is to be done about this scandalous mess?

The first thing is the blacked-out bits in the government contract with AquaSure must be made public before the election. There is nothing confidential in a contract for 30 years that has already been signed.

Anybody who takes the Queen's coin is not entitled to secrecy - especially when they know that the price of water will be higher than poor people in Melbourne can afford. It will be the end of gardens for pensioners and low-income families.

Once the contract is public, the options for a future government should become apparent. But one thing is already clear. The plant should be mothballed before any water is produced.

If the contract is inviolate the cost will be $570 million a year. If the plant is turned on the total cost of the guarantee and the water will $1.1 billion. If the plant is not turned on we will save more than $500 million, savings that will increase as the price of power increases.

This action should not wait for a royal commission, although it is apparent that one is necessary to restore good governance in Victoria.

Kenneth Davidson is an Age senior columnist.


http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/the-desal-cup-runneth-over-with-our-cash-20100926-15s9j.html?rand=1285507527814
 

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