Proof of nonexistence of free will

Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2016 10:31 pm
I think we are all wrong. The whole debate is an exchange of perpectives, supported by another perspectives, not facts. We can not state facts, as facts exist without us defining it, once we state a fact is not a fact anymore just our understanding of it. Expressed in so imperfect way of communication, that even amplifies the distortion of the fact.
We take concepts for granted, like in physics, until they are proven wrong.
If we cant prove something it does not mean it does not exist, and analogically if we have a proof we not might but we are wrong... all the time. Defining reality gives us sense of security, as we all have different perspectives, perception...reality is distorted every time we experience it to match requirements of our belief system. People change perspectives, change their minds about facts of reality all the time. Like back when "the earth was flat", now is not, at some stage everything is being restructured in our heads but only reality is never intact. No debate needed, changing Yours or somebody else's mind, based on always biased research as we only change ourselves (what we believe). That is my perspective, presented and expressed in best way possible(English is mysec. lang.). The whole post is one big contradiction, my reality vs all your realities.
cicerone imposter
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2016 10:48 pm
Poor examples. We know the world isn't flat based on many observations that cannot be refuted. Those are FACTS. No amount of future knowledge will refute that fact.
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2016 12:24 am
@cicerone imposter,
"We know the world isn't flat..."

When You say "We" who do You exactly mean by that, I am aware of observations and other means and proofs. But "We" are "them", and objectively, with no empirical cognition we are forced to believe their word.
I think on a big scale like a shape of our planet, we can understand laws, proofs provided in support of that "theory" but only understand never comprehend. Like I said we take so much for granted, and always did, always will... we love explanations, and even if there is not enough evidence we come up with brilliant theories.
I'm not questioning the "shape" of our planet just used it as an exaggerated example just don't like pseudo-sophisticated complex examples, I am a simple person with questions Smile
"future knowledge..."

I don't think knowledge is the only factor allowing us to perceive the reality.
We use our senses, and then the brain processes input, and outputs distorted version of reality.
We will never be able to "see" it the way it is. No matter how much knowledge we gather, reality is all there is and we can not know all. And in case I'm wrong, once we have all the information, we will still interpret it.
It is the same as trying to understand how birds see the magnetic field of The Earth. We can assume, but never will know for sure.

0 Replies
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2016 01:06 am
as facts exist without us defining it,

Oh dear...if only you had read a little philosophy!
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2016 01:18 am
I would not mind any recommendation (titles, authors and concepts) and constructive feedback, like I said it is my only my opinion.
I felt like expression myself and the discussion is very interesting, I am aware that I might not match the standards of this discussion but willing to learn. So I would appreciate if You elaborate more on Your statement so I can understand Your point of view.
Thanks in advance.
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2016 01:42 am
See my answer on your other thread.
0 Replies
Reply Mon 8 Aug, 2016 02:13 pm
If there is no free will than a proof and non-proof are on the same footing, they will have the effect they have, not because they appeal to the deliberative power of a free agent, but because some mechanistic response has the effect of 'agreement' or 'disagreement'.

How dumb to argue about the existence of free will.

To argue for it from logic proves just the opposite as Aquinas noted.

But man acts from judgment, because by his apprehensive power he judges that something should be avoided or sought. But because this judgment, in the case of some particular act, is not from a natural instinct, but from some act of comparison in the reason, therefore he acts from free judgment and retains the power of being inclined to various things. FOR REASON IN CONTINGENT MATTERS MAY FOLLOW OPPOSITE COURSES, as we see in dialectic syllogisms and rhetorical arguments. Now particular operations are contingent, and therefore in such matters the judgment of reason may follow opposite courses, and is not determinate to one. And forasmuch as man is rational is it necessary that man have a free-will.
cicerone imposter
Reply Mon 8 Aug, 2016 02:14 pm
That leaves out what happens to people whose chemistry in the brain can affect their personality and actions.
0 Replies
think rethink
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:12 am
A person is born with a drive to exist.

Existence links up one moment with the next, like a path linking together one meter of ground with the next one.

Existence is constantly challenged by obstacles and threat in its path.

The utility resolving these challenges, is either Devine intelligence naked, or more commonly, with a programming attached to it,
Called the mind.

Regardless of what the mind believe about choice,
The survival instinct always forces it to select existence rather than demise.

The programming serves like a map, defining and explaining the terrain.

Just like the map cannot choose your destination for you, so can't the mind.

It doesn't possess its own opinion,
It always is the same decision,
Thriving survival,
Belonging to the survival instinct (not as decision though).

The mind is actually truly unbiased.

What distorts and complicates things, is deception.

The instinct wants to survive and thrive,
But what is survival?

The instinct has no clue.

So whatever in the programming is most convincing to the instinct, as genuine thriving survival,
The instinct grabs it.

What are the factors convincing the instinct?

1, stimulation.
The body is equipped with sensors, like eyes,
Ears, and so on.
When something is sensed, it occurs through projection or diversion (in a more common term, focus).

This means, that consciousness was navigated to a specific direction and expands into its target, transforming the light rays or sound waves (actually, its reaction to those),
Into existing consciousness.

This stimulating experience (stimulation occurs on multiple levels and at various locations.
The ear drum simulation for instance, is not consciousness, it's just a brain chemical,
It's also not the grand experience, it is not even the audio experience.
The actual experience is reproduced mentally, based on the former.
Just like you can't position yourself between a radio transmitter and a receiver, and listen in,
As these are radio waves, not sound waves.
Sound waves hitting the ear drum can only stimulate the ear drum, it cannot magically invade the body and reach the brain,
It stops at the ear drum,
What you hear is not sound, but a generated reaction to sound,
Generated by consciousness, and consumed by consciousness)

These stimulations are giving expression to consciousness, and are therefore giving consciousness lots of limelight, but these stimulations are also getting lots of credit for their effect, and become promoted as they promote​ life.

So when the mind is confronted with contradicting options,
With all of them claiming that they are thriving survival,
The one which stimulates the most consciousness,
Will be a convincing factor.

Whichever idea whips up the most emotional excitement,
Is also perceived as most genuine.

These are contributing factors, not decisive ones,
Which means, that they affect but also adopt to the overall picture.

So there is no choice between good and bad.

Only between truth and false.

How is this a choice?

Why world you go for the lie, if you could help it?

You didn't choose the lie,

The lie chose you.

Its ability to pose as truth was overpowering your capacity to discern between the two.

But the belief in delusional choice keeps causing you to fall for the lie, time and time again.

If you would be aware how blind you naturally are,

your focus would be on external truth,

Not on internal choice.

Assuming ownership over your good and bad choices, is destroying you equally with both types.

They both reconfirm the delusion that your mind is a human being, vs truthfully realizing that the mind is a map.

Imagine, if you would worship your GPS as a god, because you perceive it's automated programmed rerouting, as the machine making excellent choices.

The GPS cannot choose between taking you to your destination, or not.

It cannot decide another destination for you.

It is the preset destination (the instinct) that has decided (also without choice, likewise the instinct to live isn't a choice either) the direction of the journey, and the mind (the GPS) is only the map, showing what was written on it,

So is the mind, only returning what was put into it (written on it),

A drawing, a book.

How can a book be a human being?

cicerone imposter
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:20 am
@think rethink,
A person is born, and nurtured by the mother to survive.
reasoning logic
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2017 06:17 pm
@cicerone imposter,
A person is born, and nurtured by the mother to survive.

Reality may be black and white but I am unable to see it that way.

PEMBERTON TOWNSHIP, N.J. (AP) — A New Jersey woman who authorities say put her newborn baby in the middle of a road and set the child on fire was charged Saturday with murder.

Burlington County prosecutors said Hyphernkemberly Dorvilier, 22, of Pemberton Township was jailed on $500,000 bail. It wasn’t known if she has retained a lawyer.
Police responded to a Friday night call about a fire in the middle of a residential road in the township, about 30 miles east of Philadelphia. Officers found the baby in flames and put out the fire.
The child reportedly was alive and breathing at the time she was flown to a hospital in Philadelphia, said Joel Bewley, a spokesman for the prosecutor’s office. She died about two hours later, he said in a news release. An autopsy will be performed to determine the cause of death.
Authorities believe the mother doused her baby with an accelerant then set her on fire, Bewley said. They do not have a motive. The woman was taken into custody Friday night.
Prosecutor Robert Bernardi said details of the baby’s birth were still being investigated. The baby’s age has not been disclosed. Bernardi would not comment on whether the mother has a criminal record or if she has been involved with child welfare officials.
Dave Joseph, 45, of Pemberton Township told The Burlington County Times that he saw a young woman get out of her car and light something on fire in the middle of Simontown Road. He said the woman told him she was burning dog waste.
Joseph said the woman appeared calm and soon tried to flee the scene, but residents stopped her.
“It was just mind-boggling,” Joseph said. “It was a nightmare even if you have a strong heart.”
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