Can one find Love without following social norms?

Joe(No.)Nation already said that, but much more eloquently than you did.

I thought Joe lacked emphasis.

Aha!

Patient -
I think you are sufficiently in love with yourself so much that there would be no room for anyone else.

Love is about giving and I don't hear that in one sentence you write.

You are an observer of it all. That seems to suit you fine.

Oh dear, I'm afraid I do not read his words the same way you do. I guess that's the whole point sullyfish - different perspectives.



He appears confident in his professional life and is asking for advice on relationships on whether he needs to possible rethink his feeling on social norms or whether he isn't able to do that. He's just seeking advice.




gosh, that's not what I'm reading - he is psychoanalysing the social norms - but that's the question he's asking. He sounds prepared to work at relationships - just isn't comfortable with the whole "dating games" he has seen happen

good thing about the www, or not as the case may be .... different perspectives or interpetation, advice or criticism, of what we see in black and white.

I could be way wrong, obviously.



<so sorry to read about the loss of your husband in May, Sullyfish - hope you are managing>

Thanks, Izzie. He was sick for 2 years with colon cancer. My heart is broken, but I have lots of support and a strong constitution. His memorial fund donated a football/track/baseball scoreboard to the middle school he taught for 33 years. I was blessed to have had him for that long. He was passionate, kind and I always felt loved. I miss him terribly.

That same kind of need for intimacy is what I don't hear in this post. There does not seem to be room for love in this person's life.

Izzie, thank you again. It may be a somewhat superficial observation - or even a norm - but I perceive the length of a response to be a measure of how serious someone takes another person's question, so let me say that I really appreciate your help.

If I read well, the bottom line of your last post was that while I should stay true to myself when around someone I like, I should take things slowly without putting pressure. And one way of putting pressure is revealing too much at once. I wrote my answer to this also to soozoo (on how I make her enter my daily life). Now, I cannot reproduce the exact and vivid experiences in words, and as you said in one of your previous posts, it is easy to make assumptions by reading - but I can assure you that I always received a positive feedback and never recall getting the impression that letting them know me (and my relatives) closer put some kind of pressure on them. I felt that they were pleased and actually more easy around me after I reveal my closer entourage of friends and relatives. I think this is due to my spontaneity and easiness when I "introduce" her to my world.
The circumstances that lead me to unveiling myself are actually very natural and usually these people have become my best friends.

When I wrote that I fear that this easiness kills attraction I meant it this way: if attraction is (normally, popularly, etc.) built only on mystery, push-and-pull, seduction games and such, revealing too much means removing the veil of mystery around myself and consequently removing all attraction.
In one of my countries of geographical origin, there is a popular song called "the rule of the (male) friend" which summarizes the notion of the "friend zone", i.e. that once you're a woman's friend there can't be love. She sees you as a little brother (or a big brother), whom to tell everything, with whom to do everything, with whom she can be together 24 hours a day - but never fall in love with. It is one of the norms I truly despise.

I never mentioned here that in the past I wasn't as idealistic as today and that my current ambitions in the realm of relationships are a result of several events and transformations. It is only about 3 years ago that I started seeing eternal monogamy as my ultimate goal and also started valuing "100% honesty" and other virtues.
It may be that my relationship experiences prior to this transformation, in which I enjoyed positive results within a short time span by adhering to the social norms (flirting, seducing, dating, mystery, game, etc.), still linger in my subconscious as a benchmark against my current lack of results.

As many (including you and other posters here) have told me, the only missing ingredient I might need is just a bit more patience. Instead of patience, paranoias fill the void of time that accumulates from the moment I meet her as months pass with nothing happening.
The main fear probably being:"No immediate results = no results forever."

What insights do you have about this? What do you think of the "friend zone"-rule? What would you answer if I asked you how friendship (between a man and a woman) develops into Love? Any experiences?
I would like to believe in "Love at last sight" but it is heavily contraddicted by my personal experiences.


What I feel (and the cynical benchmark tells me) is that all these clichés boil down to one explanation: she either lost the attraction towards me, or found someone to whom she is more attracted. And all attraction is based on the norms of flirting and seduction.

And my un-idealistic past reminds me that I can have it all back by just quitting virtues, being dishonest, mysterious, calculating, moving across women in the same way I move across the career world.

So, I ask you: can Love (and/or attraction) come after friendship has been established?

[will resume writing after sleep, had a quite busy day...]

Not just "not comfortable"; I reject them due to a choice of lifestyle, reasons stemming from philosophical, religious, ethical, moral, etc. considerations (in addition to what I wrote in my first post about being an ideological hermit, i.e. all ideas stemming from the studies of social sciences).

I have played those dating games in the past, and I have been good at them, just as I can learn to be good at anything where you just need to follow instructions (in this case, social norms), but today consider them incongruent with the new beliefs and relationship aims I developed after my transformation

Sounds like a giant construct to me, instead of just living and learning. Words such as solipsistic and defensive come to mind, but they're pretty aggressive words in themselves.

On the other hand, many people have had giant constructs to live by and done well. Give me a bit, I'll think of one, and if that person or persons did know love.

sullyfish6, please accept my sympathies for your loss, even if a lot of time has passed.

I don't know whether your remark about me was a personal aggression or an unbased first impression, but I would like to ask you what kind of intimacy you are talking about, and why exactly you think I don't have it. I'd be grateful if you could be as specific as possible.

ossobuco, I ask you: isn't our whole species a whole construct? And what about all the numerous cultures, those we are in contact with. I don't mean high-reaching philosophical issues, but the basic tenets of our civilization. Aren't they constructs as well?

What I do is question these great constructs which determine the laws of our daily lives. I question them, compare them with other constructs, with my own ideas and those of others, and choose what I think is best for me.

The result is simply a new construct - just that it is highly different from group constructs.

My sincere condolences sullyfish.

I think so. I've felt out and out 'inloveness' for four members of the opposite sex in my life and all of those started out as friends. There was no 'social norming' or mysterious game playing- with each of them there was an immediate ease and fun to the point that we both wanted it to last longer and extend further.
I've never been out on a date! I'm serious. Really, it always started with laughter- when you recognize someone you can laugh with- that's a powerful attraction.
And then you start noticing the other little things like their cute crooked front tooth or their strong hands or their persistent and unshakeable kindness...and those things build into an attraction.

My closest friends of either gender are those who recognized me as someone they could shoot past the social norming with to just say what they think and be who they are. Those are the people I immediately recognized that I wanted in my life, because I knew with them I could do the same thing.
There's too much of the other available. It's not special...that's why it's the 'norm'. So when you find someone you immediately recognize who immediately recognizes you- that's a true treasure -extremely valuable- to be handled with care (and no games).

But when you've had that and you lose it - it's very hard and you have to be ready for that. Everytime I hear a certain song by the Jayhawks with the line, 'I never thought I would miss you, miss you so much' I think to myself -'I always knew I would miss ________ so much.'
Losing someone you've known (and who's known you) like that is like losing a part of yourself.

Thanks aidan for the positive and unconventional story

The way you describe your interaction with your closest friends is also the same I feel with these friends of mine whom I like. In my case, however, either due to social-normative-conventional reasons, "human-nature"-reasons, or - as I was discussing with Izzie - simply because of my own lack of patience, it has been difficult for me to add attraction/romance to such friendships.

You also talk about loosing such relationships, and I don't know whether you meant loosing through death or that the relationship stops working and you break up/divorce. For the latter case, one of the main reasons I decided to choose honesty, virtue and friendship is that those stand in contrast against the typical reasons which lead to relationship breakup: bad communication, lack of understanding of the "true self" that may have been hidden during the whole dating+flirting process, disillusion after honeymoon effect wears off, sudden changes.
But there's also another reason for relationship breakup: there is always the possibility that she will find someone to whom she is more attracted than to me.

Hey there PC!



That is one of the many things that can go wrong, one possibility out of a million or so possibilities. To be honest, I believe that mainly happens after someone has already found that the relationship is not working so they are more likely to seek out/find another partner. Not always, but if everything in the relationship was all that it should be an “ideal” world " then finding someone attractive would not necessarily mean they would go off with that other person. i.e. you can find many people attractive " but finding someone attractive is not the same as being attracted to someone and getting involved with them, usually because something is missing in the relationship.

I’m afraid that even the seemingly strongest relationships in the world can still break up. You can believe that when you get married or settle down with the person whom you believe to be your life-long partner, that it will be forever, ‘til death do you part... but many things can change that relationship " no matter how strong you are, no matter how much you work and work and work at a relationship and wish to remain with one person for the foreseeable future, both of you have to want it to work. I don’t believe I know anyone who got married thinking it would end up in divorce.

You cannot control your/their environment " any number of things can go wrong. (what I mean by environment is external factors that can change a person in the relationship). That is why it can be completely devastating.

You don’t anticipate getting married / committing to a relationship expecting that it will go wrong. But it does. Often. You can never control what another person does " you cannot control their environment to ensure nothing changes.

Those things that you found attractive in a person can be the things that end up annoying you.


What I am hearing you say, I believe (tho I may be wrong)... in basic terms is “what’s the point in putting all the effort into a relationship, and not having a guarantee at the end of it? What’s the point in trying when that person could, in a heartbeat, may just end the relationship? Why put your trust and whole being into a relationship and giving your all to that someone special whom you trust, when they can chew you up and spit you out”

Perhaps that is not what you are saying at all, just my interpretation between lines.

If you simply never trust anyone with your heart and soul, then you will never know if it would have worked out. You sound as tho you are fairly sure it won’t hurt quite as much if you find someone without playing the "dating game" as you have previously experienced using the "dating game". Whomever you may find, if it broke up, I believe it would hurt the same. It could be you who breaks it up.

Making a decision now, on whether or not to allow yourself to fall in love, is huge.

Do people die of a broken heart? I believe that can happen. Do people die of loneliness, being on your own, not having a life-long partner (lover as opposed to a "platonic" best friend) " maybe.... who’s to know? Many people never marry but have trusted friends. Is the pain of never achieving the ultimate monogamous happy-ever-after tougher than the pain of attempting to achieve it, through social norms or through your own set of ideals...? You just don’t know, do you? I don’t think there is an answer to that.

If you were to take 100 people who had remained married all their lives from say... the age of 25 and asked them if they had remained “happy” their whole life with their partner, never been tempted by the forbidden fruit...or that life could have been greener-grass elsewhere, what percentage would you think?

If you were to take 100 people who had been married, divorced and met someone else and found happiness, what percentage would you think?

I know quite a lot of divorced couples. Most with children. Most of them, ideally, I know would wish that their marriage had made it and that the children/family/friends etc would not have had to endure the pain a divorce often causes. Most of them have found another partner and have settled down, the children have “accepted” their parents breaking up, tho some are emotionally damaged, some are happier that their parents appear happier / more fulfilled in a relationship/marriage with a new partner.

I know people who have stayed married, mainly my parent’s generation, who will remain married to the death do us part " who are miserably unhappy " the children know it, it’s apparent, but their marriage vows will hold true. In another breath (I do take them occasionally), I know people who have been married for 50+ years who have been happy with their partner and are still "in love".

You are not the same person in your 20’s as you are in your 40’s or your 60’s. External environments change, internal environments change. Your ambitions now may not be your ambitions in 1 year, 5 years, 10 years. Your success today can change tomorrow.

You can only go for the here and now.

Of course you can view a plan to your future, you have your hopes and dreams and you can wish / work for achieving your goals " that is a “norm” " but you cannot guarantee it will happen. All you can do is attempt to succeed in what you do, relationships / work / health, and if the plan alters along the way in a negative way, do your best to work around the changes and believe in what you do and who you are.

You sound to me as tho you wish to meet that one person with whom you fall in love and, albeit that you understand that relationships are not perfect, that you wish it all to be “ideal” long term. I’m not sure you feel “passionate” about that person " I think that’s a part of the romance parcel you do not want to buy into. Hmmmmmmmm. Personally, I could not be “unpassionate” but I am sure there are other people who do not “need” “enjoy” romance and those 'social norms', so if you found someone like minded who chose to be your best friend, shared your world with you ... well, I’m sure there are ladies out there who are like-minded. Would that person offer you any guarantees even if they are like-minded now? " nope " no-one can guarantee that their feelings / emotions / life / opinions won’t change.

Life also changes when children factor into the equation.



Attraction, in my opinion, is not built on those things. It may or may not include it, but I don’t believe it’s built on that.



No no, I don’t think revealing too much removes the veil of mystery... thus removing attraction, definitely not, I would just advise slowing the process down, reveal yourself at a pace that the other person can take on board. Possibly, only possibly, it may be that revealing everything about yourself and making that person a best friend from the start, and part of the friends and family immediately, possibly that may be a little overpowering. Of course, it’s all exciting at first (say for your lady meeting the family and friends and world that you live in and everyone getting along with no negative feedback) in any relationship " I would just advise you to slow it down a little, let her get to know you before everything else factors in. It’s not about being mysterious, it’s just allowing it to happen naturally, with time. Of course, I don’t know your world or whether you live at home or how independent you are etc. That all does make a difference. If you see your family all the time then obviously your lady will be part of that. If you live an independent lifestyle and travel a lot etc " then getting to know someone intimately is going to/ should (in my opinion) take longer. It all depends....





I think your experiences thus far are limiting your views. Of course they are. You are in your 20’s (please do not think I am being patronising here, I’m not) " eternal monogamy for you could mean another 75 years... it’s not impossible, anything is possible, I feel that if you wish to spend a lifetime with someone, then take your time to get to know them and vice versa. 75 years is a long time with the wrong person, with the right person it will go all too quickly. You do not have to have flirting and seduction as negatives. You also do not need to quit your virtues - you really don’t.



Question: if you were going for a walk in the woods with your lady, would you ever consider picking her a flower? Would you ever leave a note for her to find telling her that you love her? Would you just sit and hold her hand without any need for talking?

We consider social norms differently. There are no instruction manuals to “falling in love” " no one person is the same " how can you apply those instructions to 2,3,4,50,100 people. Social norms are not instructions on how to fall in love. The norms of meeting someone, acceptable behaviour, virtues (as I would see them) do not apply to the so called “collective” when you meet someone with whom you wish a relationship to go further " each person you meet is an individual " if you treat each lady you meet, and have a relationship with, exactly the same as the last, it won’t be “special” will it? The social norms of being polite, laughy, smiley, chatty etc is one way to meet someone. Applying a “social smile” mask etc is a norm in every day life " however, as you get to know someone and grow with them, the relationship matures, gradually the social smile recedes when you find a comfort zone, you get to see the person deep down, the true colours. And even then, those colours can change, anytime.

Not everyone is deceptive, manipulative etc. Social norms, the instructions to which you refer seem to be wholly negative when I don’t believe they need to be.

Tell me, what would you do if you fell in love with someone, they became your best friend, soul-mate, whichever words you wish to choose, your lady obviously felt the same way about you " but your family, her family, did not get on? Initially (let’s say, a year) it all seemed to be going rather well " but, for some reason or another, your family and friends just did not like her, tho they have never told you that. Or she did not like them. You love her, you want to be with her, she loves you and wants to be with you. What would you do?



I believe that friendship can develop into love. Experienced. How, through what I consider social norms of dating (tho we didn’t actually date per se). Friends to romance to significant other. I also believe that you can have been in love with someone, break up and still remain friends. Experienced. I also believe you can fall in love with someone, work work work, tolerate, put up with, wish to die for, long for, get together with someone after a number of years, and then see things you don’t like about someone, things you didn’t realise were there, even after a very long time through thick and thin. The love is there, but after the previous two experiences, when it comes to the third you have to think very long and hard about whether to risk it again or whether to remain on your own, have a handful of good true friendships and accept that you may remain on your own because you have lost that trust in love. Or you accept that person with all the imperfections in yours and their life " and make a go of it.

Some people do that just so they do not remain on their own. I don’t know that I would wish to be with someone if I knew they were with me for the sake of companionship. I don’t know that I would choose to be with someone for fear of being on my own. I would wish to be with someone who loves me, warts and all " and wants to be with me because it would make the world a brighter place to live in.

You just don’t know which way you’re going to go. Whether your cynicism will win or whether your passion will win. You can only go with the here and now and if you choose to commit to a relationship, you are also choosing to take a risk of being/causing hurt again, or ... being eternally happy. What do you do? You only know the answer to that if or when it happens. Or, you don’t allow it to happen. Could be a wasted opportunity, couldn’t it?




I’m assuming here that you mean after a few weeks or months... your honeymoon period is a lot less time that my honeymoon period would be.

Dating does not have to include the flirting/seduction etc process. Usually, I agree, it does include it, but it doesn’t have to. Laughing with someone can be seen as flirting " but it doesn’t mean it is flirting. It’s just how you wish to perceive getting to know that person. Meeting someone, going for dinner, talking with a group of friends, having some fun in the park, at a gig, behind the scenes " does not have equate to batting your eyelashes, acting coy, dressing sexily <whatever> etc (usually seen as flirtatious behaviour) or the “negative games”... you can be friends with someone and find that your interest in them becomes deeper and ... then the next step. There does not have to be a push-pull etc negative behaviours. If you find yourself in that situation " then, you either start playing the game you despise (no) or you step back, hold your head up high and keep true to you hoping the next time you feel that way, the lady will be more compatible to your persona (yes).

In your industry (assumption on my part) " I would imagine that it would be hard not be sceptical.... but like I said, you may have 75+ years in front of you, just take the time and have the patience to discover. Meantime, head up, carry on and most importantly, enjoy your world. It sounds as tho your life could be very full and worthwhile, you need to make sure that you take the time to choose wisely whomever will share that world with you, should you decide to commit to someone.

Remember, no guarantees.


You’re a young fella " if I were you, I would try not to make any final decisions about what to or not to do regarding relationships " just let whatever happens, happen. The decisions you make today, may change tomorrow, next week, next year. Don’t try to find “the” person... go out and enjoy your life and see who crosses your path. It could be very unexpected " that person could be the opposite to the things you believe you wished for in a person, but, you may fall in love with them " and vice versa.

I do believe in love at last sight. Definitely.


Oh finally, coz I’m in a rambling mode now " the eternal monogamy love that you are considering seeking (and perhaps most folk have that ideal) sounds almost like a child-like unconditional love, almost robotic. All accepting, no boundaries, unquestionable. It’s what I think we (most) feel for their children. Being in love with someone tho does have boundaries, not all behaviour is acceptable, there are more defined boundaries about right/wrong, acceptable/not acceptable behaviour. It truly would be a wonderful thing to have with a partner for your entire life " realistically tho, I think that would only be in an ideal world.

OK, call me hopeful sceptic

By 'losing' I meant having circumstances intervene so that you don't have the same everyday, close contact with that person that you once did. Unfortunately - in most developed countries anyway- we can only marry one person. A choice has to be made and that can inhibit how much time and how close you can be with anyone else that you may have also loved to spend time with.
And if the relationship is close to the point that it would make your partner uncomfortable -something has to be sacrificed - or at least I think so.

But you know that sort of friendship transcends time and boundaries. There are people I haven't seen and spoken to in years and I know if I saw them tomorrow - it'd be exactly the same. So you don't really lose the people or the relationship - you just lose the pleasure of having them there in your life every day. That's what I meant by that.

What do you mean "unfortunately"? I think we agreed to have one wife each to prevent the suffering of having a few.

(joke, joke, joke...I always feel it necessary to explain that I'm joking for some reason...I don't want to add promiscuous to the list of labels I've already been assigned on this forum).
No, it's really only partially a joke. I find the idea of only ever being able to love one person your whole, entire life sort of ridiculous and stifling actually. Marriage, while on the one hand I think is a wonderful institution which CAN (for certain people) be a truly successful one that meets a person's needs entirely and completely fulfillingly, has always been, on the other hand, a difficult concept for me to embrace.
Not the faithfulness - I am a faithful and loyal person by nature - and maybe that's why I find it so difficult - because I know if I say I will do something I feel that I HAVE to do that thing.
But just the IDEA of saying, 'I love you and I will and can never love anyone else and I will never want to be with anyone else ever for any reason except you', and closing one's self off to anything or anyone else ever again, seems unnatural to me.
My personality just struggles with that. A personal failing - what can I say?

What a ditz I am - Spendius did not say: I was talking from my point of view which is female point of view - maybe I'd have like to have had more than one husband.

I (aidan/rebecca) said that. I was going to copy and paste what spendius had said and quote it - but obviously I forgot to do that and thought I did so I just put quotes around my first sentence making it look as if spendius said he may have wanted more than one husband which is causing me to laugh and laugh and laugh right now.

Sorry spendius - I SWEAR that wasn't intentional.

well, i don't know if you'll get this now because it's so long after the fact, but i thought, you're my kind of person! (as far as a freethinker). so, at first when i was replying to this i said ABSOLUTELY, you can find this kind of relationship. but as i wrote out my story, i think something else unfolds.

i had found that kind of love. we connected intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, physically. very platonic, yet romantic relationship. we talked about the deepest parts of ourselves - fears, secrets, dreams, goals, etc. we had a very fulfilling time together, same interests - traveling, music, spirituality/buddhism, similar values, parenting, intellectual pursuits, unconventional/alternative view and lifestyle ideas, etc. we had some pretty lofty ideas, it was great to connect with someone like that. we could look into each other's eyes easily, there was nothing in the way of us. it was a genuine connection.

it didn't last though because of the complications of REALITY (he had been with someone else who was pregnant when we met, pregnant out of coercion), and he chose to stay in that relationship because of their child and other heinous reasons (lack of self-esteem/sense of self/manipulation/abuse). so as you can see, we both had issues. but, we are human, you have to accept it, learn, and do the best you can. possibly our relationship could have turned into something worthwhile if he had chosen to leave his unhealthy relationship, as we discovered alot about each other and relationships, we grew tremendously with each other, were wanting to have a healthy relationship, we loved each other, saw a future together. but i guess all of that was somewhat immature and unrealistic. maybe it was a healing or therapeutic relationship. our issues came out later (as the relationship could not continue past a certain point because of his other relationship), and then you could see the negative issues that possibly attracted us to each other (codependence, history of abuse, etc.)

but anyway, back to you. i think it IS possible to find that kind of compatibility and connection, intimacy, honesty. but i think it's buyer beware? i think that kind of idealized relationship may be bound to fail, even if there is no infidelity involved. and it sounds strange that you set out a condition for love, especially one such as the relationship has to disregard social norms. love ideally is unconditional, the higher forms (agape, platonic, etc). but even for "regular" forms of love, like romantic, you should not expect things like this, if you do want honest love. it should be because you love the PERSON, not the relationship. not what you get from them, and not an idealized version of who they are. who they really are. you'd have to see yourself for who you really are.

your lack of sense of identity, and not identifying with anything, sounds like detachment, disassociation. it sounds like you are very unsettled. i wouldn't be concerned with not identifying with countries or cultures, but i would about not having a clear ideology. you need some kind of foundation/grounding for your sense of self and life, in order to offer to someone else, in order to truly and deeply experience life, yourself, and others.
i think you are deeply needing intimacy and connection, it seems like a disparity within yourself and your life. deep insecurity or emptiness.

you mention that if you were honest you could come across as defensive, your specific ideas of love (idealized love), the social adeptness, learning from reading scientific studies rather than from experience of truly or deeply relating with people. that sounds very strange, from what is healthy. saying that you are not needy, can live without love, i think of as being completely detached from your needs and feelings, not admitting that you DO crave and need intimacy, everyone does. you may want to begin with being honest with yourself. what happened to you growing up? have you talked to a therapist or psychologist? it sounds like you are at a point that you are ready to heal, so you can have a real connection with someone.

in personality type terms, i think INTJ or INTP? i almost think something like aspergers (bc of the scientific-mindedness, minus the social issues), or narcissism/sociopathy/antisocial/borderline (if you understand this kind of person from a compassionate point of view).
understanding and compassion are paramount, especially for ourselves.

there is a middle ground, it sounds you have inner work to do. reading about psychology may be good for you (but you may have already?). maybe there are different things you need to read. you have to accept and love yourself. there are probably lots of other helpful things i could say, but it takes alot to get it together. i have found spirituality to be very helpful for healing, buddhism in particular, as well as psychology. sorry for the lack of comprehensiveness and cohesion.

here are some links that i've found useful for understanding this. i've found better pages that truly do emphasize understand and compassion, that a person is blocked off from their core, feelings/emotions, etc. it's hard to see in themselves.
http://www.narcissismcured.com/Narcissism_Cured.html
http://samvak.tripod.com/2.html
http://www.sociopathicstyle.com/index.htm