Can one find Love without following social norms?

No.

define sodial norms. I spent years in hard rock and metal bands and that's not considered social norm by the mainstream and yet I was able to find love.... over and over and over and over again...sometimes twice a day on beach gigs.

spendius is that you?

No one is fully honest from the beginning. When you meet a person you're trying to impress, you always put out your chocolate side (as I call it). You
don't have to lie, but you try to be charming and accommodating and make
the other person feel like he/she is the most important person in the universe.

Once your relationship has taken off, you can start letting your hair down
and be more yourself, but in strides please, not all at once.

Social norms are there to make each others life more pleasant, you actually
never disregard them - either with your friends, co-workers or your spouse.
You will never tell your friend that his character is flawed, a co-worker that
he's got body odor or your spouse that this particular dress makes her fat.

In all honesty you still have to obey a certain social norm, or as I call it
social grace.

hmmmm...

interesting!

hmmmm...

just thinking about the one quote above at the moment as you have used that as an example of what your considerations are...

I think it would be a strange thing to approach someone with whom your flirting with to say "you seem to be popular" - <I'm not sure that someone would say that> and the socially pragmatic response of "would you like an autograph" <would anyone ever say that>

are you saying your 100% honest self would question if the lady would approach you if you weren't popular?

I would say that

either

1) you have either low self worth despite what you have said previously i.e. "I also consider myself a "people's person" in my daily life, highly extrovert and full of initiative. If I really want, I can climb the metaphorical "social ladder" of any group with little effort." because why would someone approach you and admit they were doing it because you were popular, not because they actually fancied you

or

2) you consider that when flirting with someone that a person only flirts with those who are popular


I'm not sure I follow. Are you just making a statement there, that this is your perception of what people generally do, or that the way your mind works is to question a persons actions and if you were being honest and upfront immediately you would ask them outright if they were approaching you because you were popular.

I know I'm not making myself clear here.

Question: if a woman you liked started flirting with you and said something like, "Oh, hi there, would you like to get a drink." <she's actually quite shy and quiet but there is something about her that you really like>

What would your "socially pragmatic" self do and what would your "100% honest" self do?







Whom do you consider the right people? The popular crowd. The go-getters. The extroverts. Are those the people with whom you wish to associate on a daily basis. If so, why?

You describe yourself as an ideological hermit - belonging to none, no in-group etc - yet the above quote implies that you can socially integrate with any group, getting to the top of social ladders if you wish to, but you do not explain why you wish to do that.

Are all you "friends" outgoing and extrovert? Do your "friends" know that your belief is that, if you are honest, you believe that you will obviously come across as very un-sexy and un-exciting, sometimes even as defensive.

Why should that be the case? If you are interested only in being with "right" people, then the mask you are wearing is surely to impress those people, or else you consider yourself un-sexy and un-exciting etc. - if you only choose to mix with the "right" people, then they may find your true self un-sexy and un-exciting. They may find that, it doesn't mean you are un-sexy and un-exciting. Perhaps the "right" people are the wrong people for you because you are having to be dishonest (as you call it) by climbing the social ladder.

Perhaps if you thought less about the social science and just spoke, acted as you wish to act, instead of how you think you "ought" to act/feel - then starting out in any relationship would be more honest than you are being now.

(I don't mean that in a nasty way - being in love with someone happens over time, as you get to know someone - all the things about them, good and not so good - I don't think you can pursue love by lying to someone - but you can still be honest in your expressions and feelings and words.)

Everyone has a whole big wardrobe of masks. You have different faces for different people. You don't have to be dishonest with people. Telling yourself that you have to be 100% honest with a future partner from the second you meet, throwing aside all "social norms" because you don't want to be part of the "norm" - I think that sounds very complicated. You're setting yourself up to fail.

Being polite, considerate and other "social norms" are not unreasonable. Not everyone has to be seductive, flirty etc.

But in all honesty - I don't think you will ever meet one person with whom you become a best friend A-Z secrets and lifelong partner the second you meet without having to "get to know them". To get to know them you have to spend time together. To spend time together you need to go out/stay in/talk/share. Those are all part of social norms. As for wining and dining and romance etc - or as you say, the seduction/flirting etc. - you seem to put a "dishonest slight" on those things - that would go against the ideological hermit stance - so.....

I guess the answer to your final question is

"no"



(gosh, you thought you were bad at summarising)


Wecome to A2K!

Thanks for your replies.

Firstly, let me clarify what I mean with "social norms" here, as it may lead to confusion.

Each group of people may have a set of laws "signaling" their behavior and interpretation of each others behaviors and personality. For example, in Japan it is considered extremely rude to clean your nose with a handkerchief and you may be seen as very uneducated and disrespectful.
In other countries, however, this norm is different, i.e. a person would be considered very awkward if he visibly fought to resist sneezing.

Similar differences in signals exist across all societies and cultures, and I reckon they exist especially in the realm of deeper intimate relationships.

When I say that I disregard these social norms, it is not because I WANT to be different, but simply it is the case that I might have found a lifestyle that transcends from the logic of those pre-existing norms.
In the banal example I described above, I might choose to use a handkerchief even if I am in Japan, for the mere reason that I think it is unhygienic to resist sneezing.

Conversely, there are a set of motivations that lead me to prefer certain values and behaviors over others in my pursuit of Love - these include friendship, altruism, transparency/honesty, commitment, communication, and, on top of all, truth. One of the top motivations I prefer these over flirting, dating and seduction is that I have observed and learned from others that one of the main reasons why relationships break apart is due to the "honeymoon effect", i.e. we initially show only our best aspects to attract each other, but gradually reveal all the bad sides once we are in the relationship - thereby we disappoint each other and risk loosing attraction and finally also love.
What I am still unsure about is whether at this time, and especially in the Western culture, it is even possible to start any relationship without following the norm of flirting and dating. As of today, all my attempts of being completely transparent from the beginning have ended up in "friendzones" (i.e. "only" friends), but I cannot evaluate how these relationships will develop in future.
It is indeed a "road not taken" and although I know it is possible, I know few couples of my own age (mid 20s) who have developed friendship into love.

Dating itself has numerous norms that I dislike: the man who must make the first move, the no-contact periods, and so many other rules, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. the whole "game of attraction".
For me, something that is as serious as Love should not start as a game.

@Izzie

Regarding your first question. I described a very common way of how a woman typically actually start flirting (with me at least... I know other ways, of course, but this is what I have experienced most often). Sometimes it has been their opening line, i.e. a compliment is the first thing I hear from her (usually after a I did a live performance). Other times she tells the compliment after we have spoken for some time. I used the "you must be popular" line as an example simply because it's one I hear very often.
My "socially pragmatic" would stay in the game and answer in a funny way (merely for the sake of joking and being funny, with no real intention), whereas my "100% honest" self is inquisitive and skeptical and wants to know why exactly this new person is approaching me (or approached me), whether she is merely attracted by my surface qualities, etc.


My "socially pragmatic"-self would accept and get a drink (I would even start joking and ask her to pay me ), whereas the answer of my "100% honest"-self would depend on whether I am thirsty or not...
If I actually liked her and was NOT thirsty, my "100% honest"self would find another way to get to know her, e.g. "I am not thirsty right now, but if you want I can accompany you while we talk!"


"Right people" are any people who can help me (or can be useful to me) on my path to achieve my life's ambitions, regardless of their personality.
My life's ambitions are quite... high-reaching, and require a lot of social pragmatism or what others may call "machiavellism".
I do not consciously lie or pretend to be someone else, but I do change my mask, my attitude, etc. depending on what will raise my position in that specific social context.
A person whom I would like to compare myself to (but I have never done anything as great as he did) is Oskar Schindler, a Nazi member during WWII who managed to save numeroous concentration camp prisoners, merely by entertaining other Nazis at the camp and being in excellent social standing with them. He deceived them to achieve his cause..

I am always my "100% honest"-self with my closest friends, who are less than 20 people in the whole world and include people I know since they were born, or who knew me since I was born, or...


Actually, I have met such people, but - as I mentioned in my previous post - they became "just friends" or "unsure" and seemed uninterested or tired/bored to develop it into Love.

gosh!

whilst reading a post it is hard not to make assumptions about the person posting.

I assumed you were in your 20's and European. I assume that you are in a profession that is in the public eye (you say "live performance") - therefore I am assuming that although you have the outgoing personality / performance / mask etc <whatever one wishes to call it> that the people you are in contact with on a daily basis are possibly more "groupies" and that the person is approaching you based on what they have seen in your performance/act, not for the person on the inside.

(of course, this is an assumption that you are a performer/media circus of a kind)

I am assuming the circles you socialise in must be to do with "appearances" - you say



hmmmmmm.... that's quite a big statement - 100% honest - that's good. It's not the sort of world I choose to live in, but I can understand what you are saying. I would find it terribly difficult to associate myself with people who I really did not like (i.e. their personality) even if it were to further my career - however, I do know many people who do just that and are extremely successful professionally - tho I would not say they are all that happy - they don't remain true to themselves, so there is a life/work balance/conflict.

You sound as tho the world you live in is a superficial world. Could that be correct, or am I totally off the mark there?

If you were being 100% honest - what, at this stage in your life, are your ambitions and how do you hope to achieve them? i.e. what would you be prepared to do to achieve your goals?



Yep, hear that, ack - maybe that comes with age when you don't have to accept simply because you don't wish to.



There you go.... , fab, that is completely a social norm, is it not? I would consider that a much better answer than the joking around one If you then talked with her and liked her, say she hadn't seen your performance, say - you met her in a non-social setting - what would you do then if you liked her more after talking with her? A date? A meal? What would be so wrong with that? Maybe she would invite you for a meal. "The Dating Game", if you wish to call it that, has changed. Maybe, out of the social setting, maybe she could take the lead.

Are you saying that this happens to you - that when you show your perceived true colours, that the person becomes disinterested - that it always ends up "platonic"? That happens to a lot of us - but there are people out there who would like your true colours. Can you meet them without the "getting to know" and "honeymoon" periods in the pursuit of love... personally, I don't think so. I believe every NEW relationship, even just friends, has a getting to know stage.



hmmmmmm.... deception to achieve a cause. Schindler. Folk have reasons to do this. It has it's place in the world, often to make the world a better place - then and now and probably always.

(Funny, "machiavellism" - second time I've read that word this week!!!!)





Again, I see that as completely normal. Who doesn't? Depending on your ambitions/work/social context - I believe everyone has a variety of masks - when you meet someone and wish to get to know them, more often than not it comes with a smile - not usually an outcry of anger or state of depression. Everyone has a social smile. Well, that's what I think. When you fall in love (which is what your question is about), I don't think you lose those masks, you just don't have to wear one all the time - and the face that person sees, accepts the person looking back at them - you don't have to have a 100% social smile with the love of you life, you don't have to have a social smile for them. Having someone love you doesn't mean that they like everything about you... no-one is perfect, everyone has flaws, but acceptance of who someone is, that is what makes the difference.

Yes, I believe there is a "honeymoon" period in relationships. You do not know someone the second you meet them, in my opinion. You say they become unsure/bored etc of you.... well, it must take a lot of your energy to keep up appearances, be jovial, perform, popular in your world ... what is left of you at the end of the day? Do you really know who you are at the end of the day? When do you take that ambitious mask off. Your lady friend may not get to see who you are and becomes unsure because perhaps you have exhausted yourself with having to keep up within your social settings. It must be very tiring to keep that up all the time.






You know - I reckon if you have 20 close friends, especially in the world I picture you in (which of course maybe completely wrong) , I would say you are a very lucky person if they are "true" friends. Of course, that doesn't help you in the "love" aspect, but it's good to know that you have friends who do truly accept you for who you are, warts and all.


The joy of the www - you can be 100% honest - or 100% deception - or anything in between on the internet - who knows! I hope this outlet is not disappointing for you when you are being 100% honest.



<apologies this is all jumbled up - it's very late!>

No. I never post under any other name.

I've done three times a day mind you. When I was in my prime.

Thank goodness those days are behind me and I can concentrate on the best things like watching those still going through it.

Thank you again for your reply, Izzie.

"The Best way to Flirt - The top 10 Mistakes that result in "I think we should just be Friends""
This is an advertisement that appeared among the automatically generated links on this very page. What is written on these and many similar ideas are what I mean by norms, rules and attraction game.

A recurring rule I hear about is:"Show only the bright side of your life in the first weeks you know each other." or "Keep a veil of mystery to manipulate her curiosity." To me, that's a very machiavellian and calculating way of behaving, and therefore it is something I prefer to restrict to the work/career/mundane part of my life.

I know well that at the beginning all of us are strangers and without some kind of curiosity or interest, it is difficult to get to know each other. However, many of the standard rituals accompanying the "getting-to-know"-phase such as those I mentioned ("dating rules") seem artificial to me.

What I did experience as more genuine is when I worked on a project with someone, traveled with someone, participated at a seminar, was in a team or DID something with someone and got to know her WHILE doing that. Those are experiences in which, I believe, our constant exposure to each other makes us accept each other for whoever we are, and they underline that whatever the differences we can really be a team.
As I said, I have experienced this way of getting to know people and I am sure it is more than possible to skip the whole "honeymoon effect" when getting to know someone. I have built trust, friendship and straightforward communication in this way.
But what I am not sure about is whether the lack of honeymoon effect also mean lack of Love... and so far my experience seems to confirm it, though I might be merely to early to judge, especially if my final goal is a long-term Love relationship.
What I do find sad is that we get along so well, understand each other so well, share each other's life stories, warts and all, failures and successes, accept each other for everything... and she ends up in a relationship with someone else (who seduces her, plays with her, etc.). According most of my closest friends, I shouldn't be in despair due to this since "all those relationships are short-term, and as they grow they'll realize what kind of man they truly want to be with", somehow hinting at the fact that it might be me...
I am also very optimistic, but as you may have understood by all my posts, I am also extremely skeptical and inquisitive (or perhaps, paranoid?)

So let me state my problem again (I think I wasn't entirely clear from the beginning): I can get to know a person very well without going through the whole honeymoon phase, but I am still unsure whether the honeymoon phase is not an absolute requirement if I want "more than friendship" from that person. Whether I MUST keep a "dating mask", in the same way I use a "popularity mask" in my professional environment.


What I would do (and have tried doing even recently) is let her enter my daily life and let her witness it - both the career/mundane setting and my closer friend circles. I want to see whether she truly accepts me for all of my facets, how she interacts among my friends, how she interacts with my parents, my cousins, whether she enjoys what I do, whether she will be my FRIEND. And I would like to discover the same with her friends and her family, her career life (is possible), etc.
The first night I went out with the last person I fell in love with was at a restaurant, the second night we had dinner at my aunt's place


I do like those people, but in a different way. I think it's fun to work on a project with someone for the mere sake of being able to work on that project. I enjoy the applause of the audience or when I know that I did something that pleased my clients. There's intrinsic pleasure when you like what you do.
However, it could be even nicer if I could both work on a project AND at the same time talk about my family, life, history and other things that might not be recommended in professional premises.
To put it simply: in my mundane/career life, I care only about what we do together and never judge people by their personality or beliefs, whereas in my deeper relationships, I strive for something deeper, and that's where personality counts.


If I have to be specific, the ambitions have multiple paths and are aimed at world peace. The paths are business, politics, diplomacy, travel/tourism, academia, live entertainment and music - and I feel that I have already climbed on several steps of each ladder.
I would be ready to sacrifice the possibility of ever finding the kind of Love I would want, especially if it turns out not to exist or to be extremely time-consuming to search (i.e. dating, dating conventions, flirting, seducing, etc.).
So far, it has proven to be my greatest obstacle, especially as I often end up confused and in despair when a relationship breaks up despite all my efforts, and desperation affects all other areas of my life.

PatientChaos, you say so much and yet you are very mysterious. I'm not sure who or what you are, or even if this is a legitimate post, although I can't imagine anyone taking the time to make all this up.

I do agree that one should be honest upon meeting people they have a special interest in. Showing only your bright side and keeping a veil of mystery are not things I would particularly want to experience with a new friend, although I would suggest not dwelling on all the negatives in your life full-force, at least right away. You should try to get to know a person in a friendly and honest way, but keep things light for the first few meetings.

How soon after you meet a person do you want them to enter your daily life - do you take her to work with you? Do you surround her with your friends, acquaintances, co-workers and family members right away? To me, that would be rather overwhelming. The two of you should get comfortable in each others company before you do any of these things.

I keep reading that you really want to find Love (why is the word always capitalized?), but you are ready to sacrifice that experience if it's too much bother (that's the way it reads to me). Maybe women you date feel that vibe from you and think they would take a back seat to your career (whatever that is).

All I know is you will never find the perfect person - there are none. Committed relationships are work, work and more work. If you find someone you care enough about, you will be willing to do the work necessary. And you should NEVER expect her to be less important to you than your job, your friends, family and other interests are. If you're not up to that sort of commitment, I would suggest you concentrate on your career and keep climbing those ladders, because it sounds to me like THAT is what is most important to you.

Remarkable. A popular hermit.

Love is of the heart.....way too many words are being used in this tread to be able to catch the subject. Over thinking is no help when looking for a mate.

soozoo, Thanks for your reply.

With regards to my priorities: Love is my highest, and probably that's the reason why each time I get involved (and work, work, work, work, work, work, and work) and fail, it eats up all other parts of my life. Actually many people have told me that this is wrong - at least the fact that I let it eat up everything else, that I put it on a pedestal.
What I meant in my previous post is not that I would put Love in the back seat, but that if it doesn't exist in the form I wish, if it is a battle lost in advance, it may not be worth pursuing to me.

I, too, don't believe in the "perfect person", and my idealism reaches as far as to saying that anyone can be the right person if we work together on it. There is a negative connotation though, nowadays, in saying "working hard on a relationship", probably because it linguistically implies that if you have to work on it it is not "natural", or not meant to be, or other simila logical trips.

You may be right about the negative vibes. After I know a woman for a few months and see that our relationship remains platonic/"just friends", I do start thinking pessimistically, which probably emits a self-reinforcing negative aura. I need to work on that.

I capitalize Love because I want to distinguish my own goal in love (complete, committed monogamy) from other trends that are popular in todays world of relationships (polyamory, serial monogamy, and, to a certain extent, promiscuity). I respect and accept all those different forms of love, and understand the reasons why many people prefer them, but I personally strive for committed monogamy. Unfortunately, it is the hardest to find especially in nowadays Western society, but my inspiration thrives on the few, rare relationships and marriages that have been successful for decades.

With regards to how I let them enter my daily life:
As I told Izzie, I just do what I feel most spontaneously. e.g. if I and a woman I know since 3 days are walking in the city, and my relatives ring my mobile phone and invite me over for dinner, and I am really interested in talking with her, I simply ask her whether she would like to join for dinner! It is really the first thing that comes into my mind, and I feel no constraints about doing so.
And so far, I have never received any negative feedback from the women. I think it helps build mutual trust and it shows that I have no fear exposing myself (especially when I'm with my relatives who always treat me like a little child, but also in a funny way ), and that I have no secrets.

What I do fear is that all this may cancel attraction, because, as far as I know, the popular ingredients for attraction are game, push-and-pull, playing-hard-to-get, being mysterious, vague, and such things.

Also, when I say "100% honest" I don't mean that I purposely bombard them with my life biography on the very first day we meet - unless, of course, our conversation leads us to (and I admit that has happened!) - but simply that I am straightforward about everything regarding my life, and don't create a new identity just to put on display for her.
e.g. if I am short on cash, I ask her whether I can borrow, and I also explain to her why I am short on cash, etc.

To put it simply: I treat her like my best friend (or someone whom I consider potentially a best friend).

What you elegantly label as "overthinking" here is merely a verbal recollection of my experiences and the inner struggles faced by my heart. I believe that all decisions of our heart are based on information, on what we know about norms, about society, on how we were educated, the cultures we were exposed to, the ideas we were exposed to.

If people didn't try to put some order into all this information, how would they even know about all the different forms of love? And how would they evaluate which is best for them? With which attitude to meet new people?

Whatever comes from the heart originates in the mind and the body, and needs to get back through the mind and the body to have any effect.

I accept your criticism, and trust me I am putting a lot of effort to summarize and being concise, but it is my heart which compels me to write so much, in part because I believe that the devil is in the details

All this is part of my pursuit for Love, and I am sure it is commanded by my heart.

A relationship between two people with different backgrounds really does take work - that is natural. Just think about that. But if you find the right mate who is willing to work with you - take the good with bad and all those things, it makes the task much more pleasant.

From what I've read here, I do believe it would be best if you found someone who works in the same area as you do, or at least has a good understanding of it. There's nothing wrong with being devoted to your job, but there are other priorities in life too.

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.

Love shouldn't be a game, as you've said. But love should not also be objective or made into a theory of will work/won't work. There are no set rules for everyone and every love is different. Your want for commitment, truth, etc. isn't odd or unique. Every person who longs for a relationship should expect the same standards. If you're true and honest with everyone you meet, then worrying about the love game and social norms won't happen.

Express yourself, not who you pretend to be to get where you want. Pretending is okay sometimes, but that's all it is, pretending. Later, when you find someone you seriously like, they're going to end up loving you for your facade and not your 100% you. Be honest, be you, and openly express how you feel about them and relationships so they know you and what you expect. You're obviously an individualist and your take on relationships seems to be a little more.. maybe theorized, because it looks like you tend to apply more psychology than emotions into it. Love is slightly logic, but mostly feelings. Don't miss out because you're making it complicated.

Be you, express yourself and what you expect clearly. When a person who is willing to love you and commit to what you ask comes along, there won't be a tactical game or questions. They'll know what to expct and everything will fall into place.

It's not a question of should you pursue it, the question is if you want it bad enough. If you can live without it and not have a void, then that's you and that's perfectly lovely. Get yourself a pooch for some company and live without a partner. But if you have a void, you should definately pursue it, even if you have conditions. The relationship I'm currently in has major conditions toward social norms also, and it's helped in the long run.

hmmmm...well, I'm not too sure I agree with the manipulate her curiosity bit... in fact, I don't know if I wholly agree with showing only the bright side etc... if you are "dating" a lady i.e. you see them occasionally, go out together to get to know them - then perhaps wearing a smile on your face and having a positive attitude is appropriate. I mean, some people meet and may fall in love under circumstances of extreme duress, but quite honestly folk usually meet and are quite happy and nice during the dating process!

It seems that...



this is perhaps maybe where the problem is. When you meet someone for the first time, even after a few weeks, they can't possibly "know" everything about you and you are treating them like a best friend therefore placing a great deal of trust in them. That's a high expectation and I would imagine, quite a lot of pressure on someone - to respond as a best friend would when they do not know you, warts and all. You don't need to create a new identity when you meet someone, you can still remain true to who you are, but you don't necessarily need to divulge all your inner most secrets from the get go. A new relationship needs to discover things about the other person. It's too much, in my opinion, to throw your entire "self" at a person - getting to know someone should be about fun (or whatever word one wishes to use) too.

You sound as tho there is a time limit for the honeymoon zone. Seriously, there isn't. You can be with someone for years.... and believe me, when you get together, i.e. living together/marriage... it can all change when you discover other things about that person as time goes on. There are absolutely no guarantees that the person you fall in love with is going to be that same person in 1 week, 1 year, 10 years - things happen, could be illness, change of career, children, the small irritating daily habits - if you do happen to be in love and remain in love, then you accept all that.



That is all very good, you like it to be that way because you are showing your 100% self i.e. you can't hide anything from your family, they know about you, so that's your honesty thing.... but, meeting the relly's immediately and being brought straight into the family (yes, I know, that was just an example you were making) - you know, maybe that's a little fast. You've just met someone, let her discover for herself who you are.



possibly, yes



no no, those are negative connotations and it doesn't have to be that way at all. Gosh, just get to know one another - work out for yourself / for her - what it is other that what's on the surface that you like about one another.



Specific example - a person


You got to know someone gradually, without all the "games" as you put it. However, constant exposure, team work, travel together - that doesn't show that person who you are first thing in the morning, when you're poorly, when you're having a grumpy day etc etc etc. Being with someone, the love thing, takes work, a lot of acceptance, often compromise. It's a different level of teamwork than working on a project, attending seminars. With those things, I believe you have a professional mask on - you're not exposing who you are, simply what you are interested in and how you make it achievable and how you manage those things. Of course, it can work and of course does work often, where people meet "doing something" (work/adventure/common interests) - but even tho you may think you have found the person in those situations, it takes more than that in a loving relationship.




Yep, that happens. She was not the right person at this point in time. You don't know what the future holds or what she wants from life. Use any cliche that comes to mind.... but 'it happens, and it hurts.

Another cliche - if you risk nothing, you risk it all.



Maybe try not to question her motivation, maybe try not to look at the person you meet and like/fancy/fall for as your immediate lifelong partner. If you can give yourself time to discover her, maybe she will give you the time to discover who you are. It really does take time and you will never know everything about another person, you will only ever know what they wish you to know. Your ideal partner I would imagine is out there somewhere - you have to take the risk if you're ever to find out. You need to let it happen naturally.



Try not to look at it as a dating mask and a honeymoon phase - try to look at it as unveiling yourself, slowly - if she sees something in you that she likes and you see something you like, warts and all, in time - then you're on your way and have something to work with.

You really do not need to pretend that you are someone that you aren't - in the same breath, you can allow the relationship to mature at a pace that is right for both of you.

Will it work out. Who knows. No guarantees. Should you try - I think so.



Give her time. Whoa - slow down. You're in your 20's. What do you consider the time frame for getting to know someone? My opinion, it takes years!!!!! Get to know her first, and let her know you before bringing the rest of the world in on it.




You certainly sound as tho you really enjoy what you do and actually, you sound as tho you are good at what you do If you can take all that positivity and maybe be a little less sceptical/cynical about the social norms/dating game - maybe you would exude that positivity after you have taken your mask off and not have to work work work work so hard all the time. Give yourself a break PatientChaos - do not think of yourself as boring/unsexy etc. Just be the person you choose to be - with or without your mask. You also sound close to your family and that their opinion is important to you.



Huge world in front of you, pick up the pen of life and start writing! You have the world in the palm of your hand. Use it wisely. Enjoy it.



It does exist! If you won't make time to allow it to happen, then it never will. Slow down and just enjoy being with people, don't search for it.



Time of length of relationships? few weeks? few months? You sound as tho you are used to succeeding and success (that is a great thing to have). However, love 'aint like that and success isn't quite the same as succeeding professionally. Maybe this is why you perceive this obstacle to be the greatest. It isn't something that just succeeds the harder you work at it. There are way too many things that can tip the fine balancing act that is required in a relationship. Success comes after many years - or as you said, decades of marriage/together. It's not instantaneous and you'll never know whether something will happen that will change it.

it.really.does.take.time. it.can.hurt.like.heck. It's does feel desperate when it finishes. That's when you find another mask to put on until you're ready to face the world without it. I guess when you find the right person, the pain from before will lessen. Relationships take work! Commitment. Both parties. There has to be trust, and in my opinion, equality. If you don't have trust and are not prepared to put the effort into making it work for both of you - then, you've got nothing.

I don't think there is anything logical about love. Just my opinion, it is not intelligent either. It often doesn't make sense and there is no rhyme or reason to it. As much as it can make you happy, it can also shred you to pieces. Is it worth it? Only you can really answer that.

Do you give up. yes/no/maybe?

I reckon she's out there for you... she'll find you if you just live your life to the full, preferably enjoying yourself whilst you live.



Finally, if you're still reading, one positive thing you can take from this post is that you are absolutely 100% more able than I am to summarise and post succinctly

Nah!!