4
   

Even some scientists give lip service to fairy tales.

 
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2009 04:56 pm
@Intrepid,
Quote:
This thread has gone so far off topic that it will take a GPS to find the way back.
GPS ??? Gross Personal Slur ???
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2009 05:01 pm
@Ionus,
gratuitous patron saint

give the thread subject Wink
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2009 06:31 pm
@Ionus,
It begs the question why go to Uni ?
--------------------------------------------------------
Could be that there are some benefits to so doing other then economic ones?
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2009 09:05 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
your in depth knowledge right out of Wikipedia
Actually Bill, I am writing a book on religion, over 1500 pages so far and I am only up to just past Muhammad. Perhaps a trilogy...

I included some of my notes a couple of posts back. I refused to engage ****-for-brains in any meaningful discussion because he showed no interest in my opinion apart from using it to enhance his little dick ego.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2009 09:45 pm
@Ionus,
refused to engage ****-for-brains in any meaningful discussion because he showed no interest in my opinion apart from using it to enhance his little dick ego.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well he is surely an asshole without question however; he does seem to come up with some good points.

But then to be truthful his good points are the ones that I just happen to already agree with<grin>, such as there is no solid proof that a cult leader by the name of Jesus exists outside the bible. Yes there is some indications that he did exist as you had pointed out but not a great deal and what very little seem to point in that direction have to be view in the light of the church and it supporters long history of forging documents.

Many figures in history before and after this period had left rock solid records of existing but Jesus just happen not to be one of those, in my opinion. At a guess, I would place the chance that he was a “real” religion leader of that time period and not some compile figure as 50/50.

Would be nice if we did had a time machine would it not?

Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2009 10:11 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Many figures in history before and after this period had left rock solid records of existing but Jesus just happen not to be one of those, in my opinion. At a guess, I would place the chance that he was a “real” religion leader of that time period and not some compile figure as 50/50.



It is really, really, sad and pathetic that you argue so vehemently over something that even you agree has a 50% chance of being correct anyhow.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2009 10:12 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
This thread has gone so far off topic that it will take a GPS to find the way back.
GPS ??? Gross Personal Slur ???


Only as it applies to you, it seems. You do still seem familiar in your way of posting, however.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 12:16 am
@BillRM,
I dont have a problem if people believe Jesus did not exist, because there are people who believe they have had sex with aliens. Most historians will not argue that Jesus did not exist. This was not Setanta's argument, he argues there was no historical evidence.If someone existed and you say there is no evidence of their existence what does that really say ?

As for debating the pros and cons of the evidence, it demands greater scholarship than space allows here. Suffice to say many have made careers out of rewritting history. Some have argued there is no evidence for men hunters and women gatherers. What do they think happened ? Women hunters ? To argue against a position is to support its opposite, that is how people think whether it is the intent or not. Some have argued Marco Polo didnt exist and if he did, he didnt go to China. It is called making a name for yourself and is a part of self promotion in history circles.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 12:19 am
@Intrepid,
Quote:
You do still seem familiar in your way of posting, however.
Again, I have never posted here prior to a few months ago when I joined for the first time.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 03:47 am
The notion that one can discount the existence of the putative Jesus simply because he did not leave a record commensurate with others two thousand years ago is an offense to historiography, also. Someone at this site once alleged that it is no more possible to prove the existence of Alexander "the Great" than it is to prove the existence of Jesus. That, of course, is an absurdity. Not only is the documentary record of the life of Alexander III of Macedon (i don't happen to think he was very great) profuse, but artifacts of his reign, most notably coins, exist--also in profusion.

But the putative Jesus would not have been a figure to have attracted the kind of notice that a successful military leader would have attracted. The putative Jesus would not have had coins minted in his name, would not have had a dozen cities founded with his name, would not have left triumphal, monumental artifacts.

To object that the putative Jesus did not leave records such as did other contemporary figures constitutes evidence that he did not exist is really rather stupid. Pontius Pilate, for whom the only record long was the scriptures of the Jesus cult, was not considered an historical figure by a great many reputable scholars for 1500 years, for precisely that reason. In 1962, however, Israeli archaeologist discovered a monumental inscription with his name at the site of Caesarea Maritima, which would have been the capital of his prefecture. There was far more reason for a Roman prefect to have been remembered in documents than was the case with an itinerant Essene rabbi, and yet the historical evidence for Pilate was in dispute on this same spurious basis until the Israeli find.

There is no reliable historical evidence for the existence of the putative Jesus. But that is not evidence that he did not exist. It is only a relatively plausible basis upon which to object that his existence may be cast into doubt. That some one person, or some body of parables about such a character existed 2000 years ago shouldn't be in dispute. And, as i have pointed out elsewhere, it doesn't matter if he existed or not, given the number of people over the last 2000 years who have been willing to believe that he did. I pointed out earlier that there is no reliable, direct historical evidence for the existence of Homer. Nevertheless, the Iliad and the Odyssey have not been "out of print" for more than 2500 years. So even if there never were a blind bard named Homer, certainly some one person, or some body of people, created these two foundational classics of the western literary canon.

The argument is specious.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 04:30 am
@Setanta,
Well my friends whether one cult leader existed out of hundreds of similar cult leaders two thousands plus years ago is beyond knowing however this cult leader existed or non-existed happen to be tie up with all kind of supernatural nonsense that had been echoing for two thousands years.

With out that background no one would care if such a cult leader did or did not walk the earth now would they?

The members of the cults that had form over those stories wish to try to back up their believes by claiming that there is solid proof of the man being a real living human where little to none evidence happen to exist.

Yes the stories surely do exist but a flesh of blood person with that name that the stories tie into we can never know and the Jesus cults members will need to go back to relying of faith alone.


Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 04:40 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
supernatural nonsense
Really, William ? Perhaps you can tell me how life started on this planet ?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 05:18 am
@Ionus,
Perhaps you can tell me how life started on this planet ?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Sure I can no problem at all if you just shut off your mind completely<LOL>

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


King James Version (KJV)
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0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 05:21 am
@Ionus,
If however you are bored with the Christian creation myth here is a link to many other cultures creation myths.

Yes sire who need logic and science when we can fall back on myths?


http://www.magictails.com/creationlinks.html
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 05:30 am
@Ionus,
Really, William ? Perhaps you can tell me how life started on this planet ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here the link that will get you started down the path of logic and science hopefully. Yes, I know supernatural nonsense is more fun and complete and you never have to say we do not as yet understand everything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_history_of_life
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 05:32 am
@BillRM,
No, I believe in evolution. I want you to tell me how life went from chemicals to multi-cellular creatures, because in my research I have found some rather surprising facts.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 05:44 am
@Ionus,
Here is an interesting Japanese myth Ionus that is just as logic as the Christian one.

As I had say who need to try to understand the working of the universe when we can fall back on nonsense.

Japanese Creation Myth (712 CE)
From Genji Shibukawa: Tales from the Kojiki


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following is a modern retelling of the creation story from the Kojiki, Japan's oldest chronicle, compiled in 712 CE by O No Yasumaro. This version is easier for the modern reader to understand than the original, but its essential features are preserved. The quest for Izanami in the underworld is reminiscent of the Greek demigod Orpheus' quest in Hades for his wife, Euridice, and even more of the Sumerian myth of the descent of Innana to the underworld.

How does this story reflect the sense of its creators that Japan is the most important place in the world?




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Beginning of the World

Before the heavens and the earth came into existence, all was a chaos, unimaginably limitless and without definite shape or form. Eon followed eon: then, lo! out of this boundless, shapeless mass something light and transparent rose up and formed the heaven. This was the Plain of High Heaven, in which materialized a deity called Ame-no-Minaka-Nushi-no-Mikoto (the Deity-of-the-August-Center-of-Heaven). Next the heavens gave birth to a deity named Takami-Musubi-no-Mikoto (the High-August-Producing-Wondrous-Deity), followed by a third called Kammi-Musubi-no-Mikoto (the Divine-Producing-Wondrous-Deity). These three divine beings are called the Three Creating Deities.

In the meantime what was heavy and opaque in the void gradually precipitated and became the earth, but it had taken an immeasurably long time before it condensed sufficiently to form solid ground. In its earliest stages, for millions and millions of years, the earth may be said to have resembled oil floating, medusa-like, upon the face of the waters. Suddenly like the sprouting up of a reed, a pair of immortals were born from its bosom. These were the Deity Umashi-Ashi-Kahibi-Hikoji-no-Mikoto (the Pleasant-Reed-Shoot-Prince-Elder-Deity) and the Deity Ame-no-Tokotachi-no-Mikoto (The Heavenly-Eternally-Standing-Deity). . . .

Many gods were thus born in succession, and so they increased in number, but as long as the world remained in a chaotic state, there was nothing for them to do. Whereupon, all the Heavenly deities summoned the two divine beings, Izanagi and Izanami, and bade them descend to the nebulous place, and by helping each other, to consolidate it into terra firma. "We bestow on you," they said, "this precious treasure, with which to rule the land, the creation of which we command you to perform." So saying they handed them a spear called Ama-no-Nuboko, embellished with costly gems. The divine couple received respectfully and ceremoniously the sacred weapon and then withdrew from the presence of the Deities, ready to perform their august commission. Proceeding forthwith to the Floating Bridge of Heaven, which lay between the heaven and the earth, they stood awhile to gaze on that which lay below. What they beheld was a world not yet condensed, but looking like a sea of filmy fog floating to and fro in the air, exhaling the while an inexpressibly fragrant odor. They were, at first, perplexed just how and where to start, but at length Izanagi suggested to his companion that they should try the effect of stirring up the brine with their spear. So saying he pushed down the jeweled shaft and found that it touched something. Then drawing it up, he examined it and observed that the great drops which fell from it almost immediately coagulated into an island, which is, to this day, the Island of Onokoro. Delighted at the result, the two deities descended forthwith from the Floating Bridge to reach the miraculously created island. In this island they thenceforth dwelt and made it the basis of their subsequent task of creating a country. Then wishing to become espoused, they erected in the center oPound the island a pillar, the Heavenly August Pillar, and built around it a great palace called the Hall of Eight Fathoms. Thereupon the male Deity turning to the left and the female Deity to the right, each went round the pillar in opposite directions. When they again met each other on the further side of the pillar, Izanami, the female Deity, speaking first, exclaimed: "How delightful it is to meet so handsome a youth!" To which Izanagi, the male Deity, replied: "How delightful I am to have fallen in with such a lovely maiden!" After having spoken thus, the male Deity said that it was not in order that woman should anticipate man in a greeting. Nevertheless, they fell into connubial relationship, having been instructed by two wagtails which flew to the spot. Presently the Goddess bore her divine consort a son, but the baby was weak and boneless as a leech. Disgusted with it, they abandoned it on the waters, putting it in a boat made of reeds. Their second offspring was as disappointing as the first. The two Deities, now sorely disappointed at their failure and full of misgivings, ascended to Heaven to inquire of the Heavenly Deities the causes of their misfortunes. The latter performed the ceremony of divining and said to them: "It is the woman's fault. In turning round the Pillar, it was not right and proper that the female Deity should in speaking have taken precedence of the male. That is the reason." The two Deities saw the truth of this divine suggestion, and made up their minds to rectify the error. So, returning to the earth again, they went once more around the Heavenly Pillar. This time Izanagi spoke first saying: "How delightful to meet so beautiful a maiden!" "How happy I am," responded Izanami, "that I should meet such a handsom youth!" This process was more appropriate and in accordance with the law of nature. After this, all the children born to them left nothing to be desired. First, the island of Awaji was born, next, Shikoku, then, the island of Oki, followed by Kyushu; after that, the island Tsushima came into being, and lastly, Honshu, the main island of Japan. The name of Oyashi- ma-kuni (the Country of the Eight Great Islands) was given to these eight islands. After this, the two Deities became the parents of numerous smaller islands destined to surround the larger ones.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Birth of the Deities

Having, thus, made a country from what had formerly been no more than a mere floating mass, the two Deities, Izanagi and Izanami, about begetting those deities destined to preside over the land, sea, mountains, rivers, trees, and herbs. Their first-born proved to be the sea-god, Owatatsumi-no-Kami. Next they gave birth to the patron gods of harbors, the male deity Kamihaya-akitsu-hiko having control of the land and the goddess Haya-akitsu-hime having control of the sea. These two latter deities subsequently gave birth to eight other gods.

Next Izanagi and Izanami gave birth to the wind-deity, Kami-Shinatsuhiko-no-Mikoto. At the moment of his birth, his breath was so potent that the clouds and mists, which had hung over the earth from the beginning of time, were immediately dispersed. In consequence, every corner of the world was filled with brightness. Kukunochi-no-Kami, the deity of trees, was the next to be born, followed by Oyamatsumi-no-Kami, the deity of mountains, and Kayanuhime-no-Kami, the goddess of the plains. . . .

The process of procreation had, so far, gone on happily, but at the birth of Kagutsuchi-no-Kami, the deity of fire, an unseen misfortune befell the divine mother, Izanami. During the course of her confinement, the goddess was so severely burned by the flaming child that she swooned away. Her divine consort, deeply alarmed, did all in his power to resuscitate her, but although he succeeded in restoring her to consciousness, her appetite had completely gone. Izanagi, thereupon and with the utmost loving care, prepared for her delectation various tasty dishes, but all to no avail, because whatever she swallowed was almost immediately rejected. It was in this wise that occurred the greatest miracle of all. From her mouth sprang Kanayama- biko and Kanayama-hime, respectively the god and goddess of metals, whilst from other parts of her body issued forth Haniyasu-hiko and Haniyasu-hime, respectively the god and goddess of earth. Before making her "divine retirement," which marks the end of her earthly career, in a manner almost unspeakably miraculous she gave birth to her last-born, the goddess Mizuhame-no-Mikoto. Her demise marks the intrusion of death into the world. Similarly the corruption of her body and the grief occasioned by her death were each the first of their kind.

By the death of his faithful spouse Izanagi was now quite alone in the world. In conjunction with her, and in accordance with the instructions of the Heavenly Gods, he had created and consolidated the Island Empire of Japan. In the fulfillment of their divine mission, he and his heavenly spouse had lived an ideal life of mutual love and cooperation. It is only natural, therefore, that her death should have dealt him a truly mortal blow.

He threw himself upon her prostrate form, crying: "Oh, my dearest wife, why art thou gone, to leave me thus alone? How could I ever exchange thee for even one child? Come back for the sake of the world, in which there still remains so much for both us twain to do." In a fit of uncontrollable grief, he stood sobbing at the head of the bier. His hot tears fell like hailstones, and lo! out of the tear-drops was born a beauteous babe, the goddess Nakisawame-no-Mikoto. In deep astonishment he stayed his tears, a gazed in wonder at the new-born child, but soon his tears returned only to fall faster than before. It was thus that a sudden change came over his state of mind. With bitter wrath, his eyes fell upon the infant god of fire, whose birth had proved so fatal to his mother. He drew his sword, Totsuka-no-tsurugi, and crying in his wrath, "Thou hateful matricide," decapitated his fiery offspring. Up shot a crimson spout of blood. Out of the sword and blood together arose eight strong and gallant deities. "What! more children?" cried Izanagi, much astounded at their sudden appearance, but the very next moment, what should he see but eight more deities born from the lifeless body of the infant firegod! They came out from the various parts of the body,--head, breast, stomach, hands, feet, and navel, and, to add to his astonishment, all of them were glaring fiercely at him. Altogether stupefied he surveyed the new arrivals one after another.

Meanwhile Izanami, for whom her divine husband pined so bitterly, had quitted this world for good and all and gone to the Land of Hades.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Izanagi's Visit to the Land of Hades

As for the Deity Izanagi, who had now become a widower, the presence of so many offspring might have, to some extent, beguiled and solaced him, and yet when he remembered how faithful his departed spouse had been to him, he would yearn for her again, his heart swollen with sorrow and his eyes filled with tears. In this mood, sitting up alone at midnight, he would call her name aloud again and again, regardless of the fact that he could hope for no response. His own piteous cries merely echoed back from the walls of his chamber.

Unable any longer to bear his grief, he resolved to go down to the Nether Regions in order to seek for Izanami and bring her back, at all costs, to the world. He started on his long and dubious journey. Many millions of miles separated the earth from the Lower Regions and there were countless steep and dangerous places to be negotiated, but Izanagi's indomitable determination to recover his wife enabled him finally to overcome all these difficulties. At length he succeeded in arriving at his destination. Far ahead of him, he espied a large castle. "That, no doubt," he mused in delight, "may be where she resides."

Summoning up all his courage, he approached the main entrance of the castle. Here he saw a number of gigantic demons, some red some black, guarding the gates with watchful eyes. He retraced his steps in alarm, and stole round to a gate at the rear of the castle. He found, to his great joy, that it was apparently left unwatched. He crept warily through the gate and peered into the interior of the castle, when he immediately caught sight of his wife standing at the gate at an inner court. The delighted Deity loudly called her name. "Why! There is some one calling me," sighed Izanami-no-Mikoto, and raising her beautiful head, she looked around her. What was her amazement but to see her beloved husband standing by the gate and gazing at her intently! He had, in fact, been in her thoughts no less constantly than she in his. With a heart leaping with joy, she approached him. He grasped her hands tenderly and murmured in deep and earnest tones: "My darling, I have come to take thee back to the world. Come back, I pray thee, and let us complete our work of creation in accordance with the will of the Heavenly Gods,--our work which was left only half accomplished by thy departure. How can I do this work without thee?Thy loss means to me the loss of all." This appeal came from the depth of his heart. The goddess sympathized with him most deeply, but answered with tender grief: "Alas! Thou hast come too late. I have already eaten of the furnace of Hades. Having once eaten the things of this land, it is impossible for me to come back to the world." So saying, she lowered her head in deep despair.

"Nay, I must entreat thee to come back. Canst not thou find some means by which this can be accomplished?" exclaimed her husband, drawing nearer to her. After some reflection, she replied: "Thou hast come a very, very long way for my sake. How much I appreciate thy devotion! I wish, with all my heart, to go back with thee, but before I can do so, I must first obtain the permission of the deities of Hades. Wait here till my return, but remember that thou must not on any account look inside the castle in the meantime. " I swear I will do as thou biddest," quoth Izanagi, " but tarry not in thy quest." With implicit confidence in her husband's pledge, the goddess disappeared into the castle.

Izanagi observed strictly her injunction. He remained where he stood, and waited impatiently for his wife's return. Probably to his impatient mind, a single heart-beat may have seemed an age. He waited and waited, but no shadow of his wife appeared. The day gradually wore on and waned away, darkness was about to fall, and a strange unearthly wind began to strike his face. Brave as he was, he was seized with an uncanny feeling of apprehension. Forgetting the vow he had made to the goddess, he broke off one of the teeth of the comb which he was wearing in the left bunch of his hair, and having lighted it, he crept in softly and- glanced around him. To his horror he found Izanagi lying dead in a room: and lo! a ghastly change had come over her. She, who had been so dazzlingly beautiful, was now become naught but a rotting corpse, in an advanced stage of decomposition. Now, an even more horrible sight met his gaze; the Fire Thunder dwelt in her, head, the Black Thunder in her belly, the Rending-Thunder in her abdomen, the Young Thunder in her left hand, the Earth-Thunder in her right hand, the Rumbling-Thunder in her left foot,-and the Couchant Thunder in her right foot:--altogether eight Thunder-Deities had been born and were dwelling there, attached to her remains and belching forth flames from their mouths. Izanagitno-Mikoto was so thoroughly alarmed at the sight, that he dropped the light and took to his heels. The sound he made awakened Izanami from her death-like slumber. For sooth!" she cried: "he must have seen me in this revolting state. He has put me to shame and has broken his solemn vow. Unfaithful wretch! I'll make him suffer, for his perfidy."

Then turning to the Hags of Hades, who attended her, she commanded them to give chase to him. At her word, an army of female demons ran after the Deity.

Translated by Yaichiro Isobe



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Back to table of contents


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This is an excerpt from Reading About the World, Volume 1, edited by Paul Brians, Mary Gallwey, Douglas Hughes, Azfar Hussain, Richard Law, Michael Myers Michael Neville, Roger Schlesinger, Alice Spitzer, and Susan Swan and published by Harcourt Brace Custom Publishing.
The reader was created

BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 05:46 am
@Ionus,
No, I believe in evolution. I want you to tell me how life went from chemicals to multi-cellular creatures, because in my research I have found some rather surprising facts.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shame on you not believing in supernatural nonsense and I am looking forward to you sharing your insights.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 06:00 am
@BillRM,
It may be of interest to some that a lot of Japanese myths legends and shrine decorations have similarities with the Jewish religion of about 500 BCE. It seems some Jews migrated to China and Japan. When the Jesuits were waiting for the Chinese Emperor to recieve them, they were approached by a Chinese man whose family and suburb had been Jewish forever. He thought the Jesuits were also Jewish and raced to meet them. After an exchange of ideas, it was determined that his ancetors had left Israel or Judea before Christianity and had never heard of it. So they had been there for at least 1600 years.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 06:28 am
@BillRM,
There are somethings in the evolution of life that are very puzzling. Take the four chemicals - carbon, hyrogen, oxygen, nitrogen - these are in abundance so it is no stretch that they combined.

Then we have to have a process where these chemicals will form complex bonds. Still no real problem, as there are so many of them.

But it starts to get awkward when we require chemicals to surround themselves with other chemicals for protection, as there is no real bond involved. I can skip over this if we assume chemicals started to eat other chemicals and defences occured accidentally at the same time.

But then there is a huge leap from this to the first cells. Perhaps the intermediate stage was eaten by better chemicals, or cells. Now we have the first cells. I am really stuck on why they would split in two.

But once they have done that, we require them to go against their "instincts" and form collectives to make multi-cellular creatures. If we ignore these problems then we have a multi-cellular creature that sends its DNA to another creature and recieves anothers DNA in return. This is really getting beyond a joke but we have one more...The next step is from bisexual to sexual reproduction where one creature contributes more than the other.

This is not fairy tale stuff, this suggests a force pushing towards more and more complex things. This suggests a purpose. Some of our greatest minds in biology and chemistry are working on these very problems, and I wish they would pull their finger out because it is very puzzling.
 

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