34
   

JP DENIES INTERACIAL COUPLE MARRAIGE LISCENSE

 
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 07:20 pm
I asked for the law. The L-A-W. Here. Bring the verbatim law that supports the JP's discression. You have provided that the JP doesn't think he broke the law (big surprize).

Show me the law, verbatim.

Also, it looks like you should read your own sources. Aside from the legality issue, the JP apparently violated the Judicial Code of Conduct.

Quote:
According to the Louisiana Judicial Code of Conduct, "A judge shall perform judicial duties without bias or prejudice."


His actions directly violate this, and he knew it.

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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 07:43 pm
@Diest TKO,
Recusing himself from a duty means that he has not performed the duty, so their can be no bias in doing the duty. That clause does not apply.

We have a journalistic account of experts saying that he had the right to recuse himself, which given your absence of proof of the counter argument means that I carry the day.

Unless you can come up with something my work is done.
Diest TKO
 
  5  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 07:43 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
You should be very very ashamed of yourself, of your willingness to follow the mob in violating the bedrock of American law.


During my time here on A2K, I've learned that when someone offers me a post as ironic as this, you can't just let it pass.

First, Do you know what the presumption of innocence means? It means that no punishment or ruling by an authority is legal without a fair trail. I, nor anyone here is an authority. The presumption of innocence does not mean a suspension of good reasoning or sensibility. I am no advocating that the man be removed from his job prior to an investigation. I'm not advocating that the man be punished without a trial. I'm advocating that the bastard face the investigation, and face the trial. Your ignorance on this matter, is outstanding.

Second, The presumption of innocence is based on the providing protections against prejudice. The irony here is that you are attempting to make this man the victim of prejudice, when it was him who actually violated protections on people based on guess what? This is laughable.

The ruling on the legality of interracial marriage is over. The idea that I should hear out the JP's reasons why he felt above the law grants his brand of hatred a validity, I'm not willing to enable.

He's not the victim. He put himself in this situation. He didn't do his job. He violated his code of conduct. He obstructed a legal marriage on a personal bias while acting as a representative of the state. You're concern trolling is laughable.

T
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0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 07:51 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Recusing himself from a duty means that he has not performed the duty, so their can be no bias in doing the duty. That clause does not apply.

That might have passed as an excuse, but he's shot himself in the foot by saying why he recused himself. He's identified himself as unfit for his position by doing this. His bias hinders his ability to execute his duties. There is no function difference at this point. If he planned on uusing this excuse, he should have kept his mouth shut. Too late.

hawkeye10 wrote:

We have a journalistic account of experts saying that he had the right to recuse himself, which given your absence of proof of the counter argument means that I carry the day.

Ha. Experts, he says. So you're convinced then? Seems like you don't object to making a ruling prior to a investigation or a trial. Plenty of experts say different. Including if you recall the Attorney General of the State. Does he qualify as an expert still?

hawkeye10 wrote:

Unless you can come up with something my work is done.

I'm still waiting on the law word for word. Go fetch.

T
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Sglass
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 08:49 pm
@hawkeye10,
And just who are your journalistic experts. Come on, put your money where your mouth is.
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 01:23 pm
@Diest TKO,
Diest TKO wrote:
..........I'm still waiting on the law word for word. ....

I don't know the relevant Louisiana statute, but their Supreme Court and Attorney General spokesmen referenced it:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/19/louisiana.interracial.marriage/
Quote:
A state statute says justices of the peace may perform marriage ceremonies, but it does not require such officials to do so, Tammi Arender, a spokeswoman for the Louisiana attorney general, told CNN on Monday........Justices of the peace in Louisiana are elected, but the state's high court has jurisdiction over whether they can keep their jobs, Louisiana Supreme Court spokeswoman Valerie Willard said. The Judiciary Commission, a judicial body independent of the Supreme Court, has the power to review a case and make recommendations to the high court....


It's curious that CNN has appointed itself prosecutor, judge and jury by putting this notice in its "CRIME" section when none of the legal authorities in Louisiana are currently claiming that an actual crime has been committed Smile
Diest TKO
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 01:32 pm
@High Seas,
Let me get this straight. You're saying that LA law has a loophole in it that can prevent a interracial marriage if all JP's refuse to do it? You're saying that JP acted in the word and spirit of the law? You're saying that nothing illegal took place? You're saying that this man has not failed to do his duties? You're saying he hasn't violated his Code of Conduct?

What madness is this? Louisiana, get your **** together.

T
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0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 01:33 pm
Can we at least agree that this guy is a worthless racist piece of sh!t?
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 01:35 pm
@Sglass,
Sglass - the same story is widely reported on all the media - the link I just posted is from CNN's website.

I'm hoping that Joe from Chicago (who - instantly and impressively! - grasped the relevance of the Oregon verdict in this case) can at some point also post his views on the federal civil rights legislation mentioned in this amicus brief:
http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:w3SpeDTAa5kJ:www.domawatch.org/cases/california/prop22vsanfrancisco/Supreme%2520Court/Amicus%2520Briefs/Am_Brf_Howard_Univ_Law_School.pdf+biracial&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Quote:
Like Modern Opponents of Same-Sex Marriage, Anti
Miscegenationists Sought to Protect Society from Interracial
Marriage on the Ground that Mixing Races Would Destroy the
Sanctity and Legitimacy of Marriage as a Social Institution
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 01:42 pm
@High Seas,
....and another excerpt from the same amicus curiae brief:
Quote:
Anti-Miscegenation Opposition to Interracial Marriage, like Modern
Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage, Subscribed to the Unfounded
Fear that Individuals of Mixed-Race Heritage Faced Greater Risks
in Developments and Societal Acceptance

Diest TKO
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 01:58 pm
@High Seas,
So is this man attempting to use a old and defeated legal argument to support his actions?

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High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 02:04 pm
@Diest TKO,
I've no idea, TKO - all I know of his statement is what I just posted earlier today on this page (CNN link).

The second link I posted is a brief submitted to California courts; it has an extensive list of legal sources purporting to show that same-sex marriage is a civil right, by analogy with interracial marriage, and I was curious about Joe's opinion on that tack. Maybe he can answer your question as well.
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 09:32 pm
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
I'm hoping that Joe from Chicago (who - instantly and impressively! - grasped the relevance of the Oregon verdict in this case) can at some point . . . .


YOU have never set forth the alleged relevance of Lochner era economic regulation jurisprudence to the issue under discussion, i.e., the JP's denial of equal protection under the law to an interracial couple. Joe from Chicago did not say a word about the alleged relevance of the Lochner era case, Muller v. Oregon, to the issue under discussion.

If I am wrong, please provide a link to the post.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 09:32 pm
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
I'm hoping that Joe from Chicago (who - instantly and impressively! - grasped the relevance of the Oregon verdict in this case) can at some point . . . .


YOU have never set forth the alleged relevance of Lochner era economic regulation jurisprudence to the issue under discussion, i.e., the JP's denial of equal protection under the law to an interracial couple. Joe from Chicago did not say a word about the alleged relevance of the Lochner era case, Muller v. Oregon, to the issue under discussion.

If I am wrong, please provide a link to the post.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  5  
Reply Fri 23 Oct, 2009 08:41 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
The second link I posted is a brief submitted to California courts; it has an extensive list of legal sources purporting to show that same-sex marriage is a civil right, by analogy with interracial marriage, and I was curious about Joe's opinion on that tack. Maybe he can answer your question as well.

Like Debra, I'm not sure I get your point. I have no idea how Muller v. Oregon would have any relevance to this case. The pertinent case on interracial marriage is Loving v. Virginia, decided in 1967. As for the Howard University amicus brief, I've always thought that the ban on gay marriage was as indefensible as the ban on interracial marriage (just as the ban on gays serving in the military is as indefensible as the ban on blacks serving in integrated units in the military). But again, I fail to see your point.
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 01:27 pm
@joefromchicago,
Joe - you realize I'm not trained in the law (other than anti-trust and similar legislation affecting M&A and corporate finance) and have only the general legal knowledge supposed to be common to all educated people. However I can tell you exactly why I thought Muller v. Oregon is the relevant case here, not Loving, and in fact you point to my reasoning yourself by considering homosexual marriage and openly gay military personnel as federally protected civil rights.

This is my thinking: in Muller all known law, including the 14th Amendment, and jurisprudence, including a USSC decision from only 3 years earlier, argued for Muller and against Oregon. All of that mass of law and precedent was stood on its head in the landmark 9-0 decision to which you kindly linked. The grounds for that decision were the police powers inherent to the state. These I understand tessentially are a social order / general welfare argument. By analogy in military operations police powers ensure efficiency and effectiveness required in warfare.

It may be that "civil rights" mean homosexuals must be free to marry and / or openly serve in all military units, and it may also be that some of the current and at least some of the past restrictions on both marriages and military operations had valid reasons for existing. Valid reasons are for example discipline and cohesion in military units and a stable social situation useful to the upbringing of children.

To the point: if that JP isn't in breach of any Louisiana statute (and as of now nobody can show anything to the contrary) then I also don't see how he can be accused of being in breach of civil rights laws: all he seems to have been doing is repeating the argument made in Muller by Brandeis.

Debra Law
 
  4  
Reply Sun 25 Oct, 2009 03:23 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

Joe - you realize I'm not trained in the law (other than anti-trust and similar legislation affecting M&A and corporate finance) and have only the general legal knowledge supposed to be common to all educated people. However I can tell you exactly why I thought Muller v. Oregon is the relevant case here, not Loving, and in fact you point to my reasoning yourself by considering homosexual marriage and openly gay military personnel as federally protected civil rights.

This is my thinking: in Muller all known law, including the 14th Amendment, and jurisprudence, including a USSC decision from only 3 years earlier, argued for Muller and against Oregon. All of that mass of law and precedent was stood on its head in the landmark 9-0 decision to which you kindly linked. The grounds for that decision were the police powers inherent to the state. These I understand tessentially are a social order / general welfare argument. By analogy in military operations police powers ensure efficiency and effectiveness required in warfare.


High Seas:

You must first understand the following:

The Fourteenth Amendment, among other things, prohibits a state from depriving any person of liberty without due process of law. All liberty, great and small, is protected. The right to marry is a fundamental liberty interest. All state regulation that infringes upon the right to marry must be NECESSARY and NARROWLY tailored to serve a COMPELLING state interest. The right to contract is an economic liberty interest. All state regulation that infringes upon an economic interest must be rationally related to a legitimate state interest.

In Lochner v. New York (1905), the SC struck down a state regulation that set forth the maximum hours that a baker could work in a week. The SC held that state regulation of hours of work infringed upon individual liberty to contract. An individual has the right to contract with an employer for the sale of his labor. An employer has the right to contract with an individual for the purchase of his labor. This case commenced what we know as the Lochner era during which the SC struck down many economic regulations.

Subsequently, in Muller v. Oregon (1908), the SC upheld regulation concerning the working hours of women. The SC held that the state has a legitimate interest in protecting vulnerable persons and the restriction on their working hours was rationally related to that interest. Women, because of their gender, were considered vulnerable (like children) and were under the protection of men and the state. The Lochner case was not overruled. The Supreme Court simply made an exception to the rule announced in Lochner which allowed the state to engage in economic regulation for the purpose of protecting vulnerable persons.

The Lochner era came to an end when the SC decided West Coast Hotel Co. v. Parrish (1937). (The switch in time that saved nine.) The state may engage in economic regulation even if it infringes upon your liberty of contract so long as the regulation is rationally related to a legitimate government interest.

Muller v. Oregon (1908) was decided just over 100 years ago. As a side note, if that case was brought today, state regulation of working hours based on the worker's gender would be unconstitutional under the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

In Loving v. Virginia (1967), the Supreme Court struck down a state law that prohibited interracial marriages (in particular, prohibited blacks from marrying whites). This state regulation of marriage deprived persons of a liberty interest (the fundamental right to marry) without due process of law in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment. The state could not prove that the prohibition of interracial marriages was necessary to serve a compelling state interest. Additionally, the state prohibition against interracial marriages violated the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Although some people believe that interracial marriages are socially unacceptable, the state may not use its vast police powers as a means to place the state's imprimatur of approval on racial bigotry and thus perpetuate discrimination on the basis of race.

Loving v. Virginia is the relevant case. Muller v. Oregon has no relevance whatsoever to the issue we are discussing.


Quote:
It may be that "civil rights" mean homosexuals must be free to marry and / or openly serve in all military units, and it may also be that some of the current and at least some of the past restrictions on both marriages and military operations had valid reasons for existing. Valid reasons are for example discipline and cohesion in military units and a stable social situation useful to the upbringing of children.


There are no valid reasons for racial discrimination. Are you suggesting that the Supreme Court was wrong when it decided Loving v. Virginia?


Quote:
To the point: if that JP isn't in breach of any Louisiana statute (and as of now nobody can show anything to the contrary) then I also don't see how he can be accused of being in breach of civil rights laws: all he seems to have been doing is repeating the argument made in Muller by Brandeis.


You haven't been paying attention to the discussion. This has been pointed out many times by many posters. When the JP, a state actor, refused to perform a public service that he routinely performs for others and discriminated against a couple on the basis of race, the JP violated the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, and Article I, Section 3 of the Louisiana State Constitution, and the Louisiana Judicial Code of Conduct ("A judge shall perform judicial duties without bias or prejudice") and Section 134 of the Lousiana Code:

ยง134. Malfeasance in office

Malfeasance in office is committed when any public officer or public employee shall:

(1) Intentionally refuse or fail to perform any duty lawfully required of him, as such officer or employee; . . . .

* * *
Whoever commits the crime of malfeasance in office shall be imprisoned for not more than five years with or without hard labor or shall be fined not more than five thousand dollars or both.

http://law.justia.com/louisiana/codes/146/78317.html

The JP, as a state actor (public official), is lawfully required to perform his public duties in a NON-DISCRIMINATORY manner. He refused to solemnize a marriage for an interracial couple for a constitutionally impermissible reason.

The JP is not making the argument that Brandeis made in Muller v. Oregon. Brandeis argued that it was constitutionally permissible for the STATE (via its police powers) to enact economic regulations to protect the safety and health of vulnernable persons. The State LEGISLATURE is the branch of the government that enacts statutes and regulations. Justices of the Peace do not enact statutes or regulations. It is NOT constitutionally permissible for a JP (via his statutory authority to officiate and solemnize marriages) to discriminate against applicants for his public services on the basis of their race.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  4  
Reply Sun 25 Oct, 2009 03:33 am
LOUISIANA CODE OF JUDICIAL CONDUCT

CANON 2: A Judge Shall Avoid Impropriety and the Appearance of Impropriety in All Activities

A. A judge shall respect and comply with the law and shall act at all times in a manner that promotes public confidence in the integrity and impartiality of the judiciary.

As used in this Code, "impartiality" or "impartial" denotes absence of bias or prejudice in favor of, or against, particular parties or classes of parties, as well as maintaining an open mind in considering issues that may come before the judge.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 08:28 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
This is my thinking: in Muller all known law, including the 14th Amendment, and jurisprudence, including a USSC decision from only 3 years earlier, argued for Muller and against Oregon. All of that mass of law and precedent was stood on its head in the landmark 9-0 decision to which you kindly linked. The grounds for that decision were the police powers inherent to the state. These I understand tessentially are a social order / general welfare argument. By analogy in military operations police powers ensure efficiency and effectiveness required in warfare.

Muller has to be understood in its context. It was a deviation from the Lochner line of precedent regarding the court's view of "substantive due process." The New Deal court, however, subsequently rejected the Lochner line of cases on the due process clause, and so there's really no reason to go back to Muller, since it represents an exception to a rule that is no longer in effect. Indeed, the statute passed by Oregon that was upheld by Muller would be considered unconstitutional today, as Debra has already pointed out.

High Seas wrote:
It may be that "civil rights" mean homosexuals must be free to marry and / or openly serve in all military units, and it may also be that some of the current and at least some of the past restrictions on both marriages and military operations had valid reasons for existing. Valid reasons are for example discipline and cohesion in military units and a stable social situation useful to the upbringing of children.

If you're suggesting that the JP in this case could successfully file a "Brandeis Brief" in support of his actions, I'm quite convinced that you're wrong. Even if he could marshal solid sociological evidence to support his view that the children of mixed-race marriages are at a severe disadvantage in life (which would be a little hard to reconcile with the 2008 election returns), it still would not be enough to overcome the strict scrutiny standard set up by the court in determining equal protection cases.

High Seas wrote:
To the point: if that JP isn't in breach of any Louisiana statute (and as of now nobody can show anything to the contrary) then I also don't see how he can be accused of being in breach of civil rights laws: all he seems to have been doing is repeating the argument made in Muller by Brandeis.

One does not have to be in breach of a state statute in order to act in an unconstitutional manner.
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 09:49 am
Some updates:

Couples sues Bardwell
Senator Vitter finally comments about Bardwell, kind of.
 

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