Jesus said I am the way.

My my you can point to one or two short comments on a radio station and this mean that the Pope did all he could to stop the murder of 6 millions in the heart of Europe over many years of time!

And all those railroads workers and others who transported the Jews to their deaths in box cars was 99 plus percent good Christians and mainly good Catholics




http://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/07/opinion/l-why-the-vatican-kept-silent-on-nazi-atrocities-the-failure-to-act-617089.html


Why the Vatican Kept Silent on Nazi Atrocities; The Failure to Act
Published: Saturday, October 7, 1989
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LinkedinDiggFacebookMixxMySpaceYahoo! BuzzPermalinkTo the Editor:

Patrick J. Buchanan's letter (''In Defense of Pius XII,'' Sept. 12), is replete with misleading statements and omits discussion of relevant facts. These are the facts of the role of Pope Pius XII and the Roman Catholic Church in the Holocaust and its immediate aftermath:

* As papal nuncio to Germany, the soon-to-be Pius XII concluded the famous Concordat with Nazi Germany. He did so, as his private letters show, because of a dread of Communism, and his accompanying belief that Nazis were the best bulwark against the advancing Russian atheists.

* The 1937 criticism of National Socialism Mr. Buchanan refers to was made by Pope Pius XI not because of his objections to Nazi philosophy or anti-Semitism, but because the Nazis wanted to abolish Catholic schools and control education of the young.

* Pius XII, in his original letters to German bishops, frequently referred to Jews as ''the people who put Him on the Cross.''

* Pius XII received detailed reports, including painfully authenticated letters and documents, on the mass murders in the East and the deportation of Jews by mid-1942. He never uttered a word about the genocide.

* Bishop Konrad von Preysing of Berlin sent many urgent letters to Pius XII begging him to intercede on behalf of German Jews. The Pope's response was to claim that for ''Unconverted Jews the Holy See has charitably done what was in His powers, materially and morally.''

* From 1943 to 1944, the Pope watched silently as 2,091 Roman Jews were deported by the Nazis, some within blocks of the Vatican. Only 102 survived.

* After the war the Pope was again quiet as his close friend, Bishop Alois Hudal, the Rector of the Anima, led a brazen and well-financed ''pipeline'' that helped thousands of Nazi war criminals, including Adolf Eichmann and Franz Stangl, escape justice.

These are a few examples. Dozens of instances and hundreds of documents detail the failure of the Pope and the Catholic Church to act. A papal protest, while imperative from a moral point of view, might have had strong impact among the many Catholic supporters of the Third Reich in Germany and Austria.

Although my father was Jewish, my mother was Catholic, and I was educated by Jesuits. I consider myself as much a Catholic as Mr. Buchanan. But I am embarrassed by his need to defend the church on every historical issue. The church has been involved in terrible undertakings, and they cannot be denied. That many individual nuns and priests exhibited great bravery during World War II to save many victims does not diminish the silence or acts of the church's hierarchy. GERALD POSNER New York, Sept. 19, 1989

I found that sentence a bit disingenuous and the next one too.


I'm not trying to be an apologist for Christianity's failure to act in the Holocaust, Bill. I'm just trying to say that it took a lot of humanity to ignore the evil.

From your postings concerning organized religion I can see it's an emotional issue for you; it's not for me.

While I do not condone the Pope's quasi silence in the face of Nazi atrocities, I do understand it. He had no power to stop Hitler and he knew it. And he did not want to turn Hitler's wrath onto the many Catholics in Germany and other Axis countries. Had it not been for the very real probability of putting more millions into harm's way, I think he would have been much more explicit in his criticism.

It is so easy to second guess the motives of those dealing with difficult situations.

But even Jesus, while he was willing to risk his own safety and well being and to incur the wrath of the powers against himself, there is no record that he ever encouraged his disciples to do the same. He only prophesied that some would choose to do so and would suffer the same fate as he suffered.

He was right about that too.

The claims on this thread had been that believing in Jesus and his teachings is in some manner or in some way of benefit to society and that Christians as a group are somehow more peaceful and more moral then others.

History had shown time after time without question that this is not true.

In fact a strong case could be make that the Christian faith had been very harmful to society and it forward progress up to our current time period.

With the examples of the on going attacks on science all in the name of this irrational belief system.

As I had said before it is likely that we would had been far better off in many ways if the Roman Empire had indeed kill off this cult two thousands years ago.

Nobody has claimed that Christianity does not have its own violent history; however it was the corruption of Jesus' teachings coupled with the corruption of Popes and Kings who used the Church to solidify and reinforce their own power that brought most of that about.

And it is difficult to find religious groups more tolerant and more peaceful than Christianity as a whole is today. As previously stated, Christianity evolved away from those practices nobody can defend, and modern Christians do not deserve condemnation for their ancient history any more than modern Germans deserve condemnation for the Holocaust.

Foxfyre your defend of the Pope and the church is pitiful in many ways and as the bulk of the German population was Catholic I do not know how even Hitler could had gotten them to harm themselves<grin>.

Pitiful defend indeed especially in light of the aid the Nazis leadership group was given by a large elements of the church in escaping punishment after the War.

I guess anyone who believes in fairy tales about virgin births and son of god and a three in one god cannot come up with anything better however.

Second it was only for the most part evil Christ killing Jews being harm not worth placing Christians in harm way in order to live up to his teachings.

modern Christians do not deserve condemnation for their ancient history any more than modern Germans deserve condemnation for the Holocaust.
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Ancient history? WW2 is ancient history? The ongoing attack on science is ancient history? The killing of abortion doctors is ancient history?

An on and on and on we go....................

Well Bill, I guess until you have to put your personal convictions to the test in the face of putting your loved ones or other innocents in harms way, you will think as you think. Perhaps you would stand on your principles no matter what the cost to others. That would be your right. But most of us will avoid a battle that would likely cause us to lose a war. Most of us can recognize that often more than one principle is in play and we have to choose what we believe to be the lesser of two evils.

You seem to choose to condemn and despise the Church and that is your right. You seem to choose to condemn Christianity and that is also your right. And it is also your right to condemn billions based on the actions of a very few, but please understand the hypocrisy inherent in that unless you are willing to apply the same standard to all people in all circumstances.

Foxfyre you had taken the position that being a Christian mean that in some manner you are more likely to be a better and more peaceful/moral person then say an evil atheist like myself.

Now every time I had shown this seem not to be true in history and current events you are crying that I am being unfair in some manner or other and blaming the actions of a small percent of Christians on all Christians.

Well it took more then a small percent of the population of Germany with a Christian population to be able to fight a world war and kill off a large sub-set of their population in gas chambers at the same time.

Foxfyre second if Jesus teachings does not lead to people taking a moral stand if they or their families could be harm then of what benefit is those teachings?

A Christian teaching is to not bear false witness and to be honorable in all things.

When I was actively working to deal with domestic violence, it did not bother me one bit to look an abusive husband or boyfriend in the eye and tell him that his 'loved one' was not there or that I didn't know where she was. I blatantly lied with a 100% clear conscience while doing it.

What would you, a compassionate Atheist who deplores lying and deception have done?

Again, if you are going to condemn all Christians now for what a Pope did or did not do during the Holocaust, are you also going to condemn all Germans now for what some members of the Nazi party did during the Holocaust? What rational distinction can you draw between these two things?

Or is it only Christians that are held to a standard that there can be no sinners among them and no error and no evil and, if there is, then all are condemned?

Again, if you are going to condemn all Christians now for what a Pope did or did not do during the Holocaust, are you also going to condemn all Germans now for what some members of the Nazi party did during the Holocaust? What rational distinction can you draw between these two things?
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You meant that you think that 6 million people plus could had been kill without the support of the majority of the German people at the time?

That it only took some members of the Nazis party to run and supply those death camps and that rounding the victims up and transporting them to the camps only took a few Nazis Party members.

In what manner are Christian’s better people then non-believers for believing in the fairy tale of Jesus? It is a simple question that you had not been able or willing to address.

And why would you need to lie to an abusing husband that you do not know her location and if you do have that need in what manner does that related to the subject of Christians as a group being better people for being Christians?

Speaking of abusing husbands, I once offer and gave shelter and protection to an old girlfriend from her abusing husband.

Here an evil non-believer did place myself in possible harm way something you seem to think is not call for when it come to Christians.

To be trueful after seeing the marks on her I was not feeling peaceful and loving and was eager for the husband to give me an excuse to place some marks on him in return, however he prove to be a complete coward when it came to dealing with another man.

So I take your answer to be that you do condemn all Germans now for Germany's role in the Holocaust. At least that is consistent with your condemnation of Christians for the action of one Pope during the Holocaust and takes you out of the hypocrite category.

And I would lie to an abusive husband so as not to put his battered wife and others in the shelter or in my home or in my agency at greater risk. Perhaps you don't think that is the way to go, but it seemed reasonable at the time.

As for the positive evidence of what Christianity has contributed to the world, I think that has already been covered. You can point to no other single group that has accomplished as much in positive ways for the world. If you choose not to believe it, that is your prerogative. Many if not most Christians give the influence of the Holy Spirit credit for that. You and others don't buy it, and you are not required to do so. But the fact that you don't believe it makes it no less true.

So I take your answer to be that you do condemn all Germans now for Germany's role in the Holocaust. At least that is consistent with your condemnation of Christians for the action of one Pope during the Holocaust and takes you out of the hypocrite category.
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The vast majority and the German people did know or should had known of the killing of what amount to the population of a major city of their fellow citizens and knowing that did indeed have a moral duty to stop it even at the risk to themselves and their families.

If good Christians have far less of a moral code then non-believers then of what used is your faith?

Next:
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And I would lie to an abusive husband so as not to put his battered wife and others in the shelter or in my home or in my agency at greater risk. Perhaps you don't think that is the way to go, but it seemed reasonable at the time.
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Once more not telling the husband is a good idea but why do you feel the need to lie to the asshole? For fear of you own safety and if so why would you not have security to take care of that kind of problem?

Next:
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As for the positive evidence of what Christianity has contributed to the world, I think that has already been covered. You can point to no other single group that has accomplished as much in positive ways for the world. If you choose not to believe it, that is your prerogative. Many if not most Christians give the influence of the Holy Spirit credit for that. You and others don't buy it, and you are not required to do so. But the fact that you don't believe it makes it no less true.
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I ask and ask for examples of the great contribution that Christianity had given us and had only been answer with the repeats of the claim without any backing of any kind given up to this point.

BillRM writes


Then you didn't read the response when it was given.

You're really reaching into disingenuous bullshit for that question to be given any credence. That question is complete crap, and you ******* well know it. But I can play that game.

Are you claiming that you're a moral person because of your religion? Wouldn't that be an admission that you would abandon your morals in the face of provenance that no god exists? The only reason you do any good is because you're afraid of what might happen to you when you die?

Of course, you may claim that in the face of the death of religion you would still be the same moral person, in which case, you can't possibly claim that your belief in these immature fairy tales is the source of your morals in the first place.

I read all your responses and proof is not quoting someone else making the same claim with also zero support in my universe at least.

No support up to this point had been posted for your position.

Wilco Foxfyre's position seem to be that if the US government decided to ship every man, woman and children in the New York City area to work/death camps good Christians would have no moral duty to stop it assuming that by so doing they would place themselves and their families in harm way.

The German Christians people and their church had no such duty when the population equaling that of a major world class city of their fellow citizens was ship off to death camps so by her logic we could all go to sleep with a clear conscious at night if we would stand aside and even aid in murdering the population of New York City.

This is the moral code of a good Christian woman!

Just to set the record straight, rather than the conclusion you have drawn, Foxfyre's position is that there is no moral value in placing additional people at risk if you have no power to remove or reduce the risk to those in harms' way. A personal of intellectual honesty would acknowledge that.

It is also useful to acknowledge all of our family, friends, and neighbors who as members of the military did have power to do something about the problem and did, many at the cost of their own lives and/or health.

We have already acknowledged that you hold all German people as well as all Christians forever accountable for what happened in the Holocaust. But how about the Atheists? Where in history do you find that they spoke out bravely or rose up to stop the Nazi machine from persecuting the Jews. Do you place yourself within the condemnation that you assign to others?

Or is it remotely possible that yes, many did nothing to save their own hides, and many did act and put themselves at risk, but they did so secretly and behind the scenes so as to actually accomplish real good instead of sacrificing themselves and many others on some ideological principle.

Within the bigger picture, at least some of your non-Christian friends here are honorable enough to acknowledge the positive contributions that Christianity has accomplished in the world. For whatever reason you seem to be incapable or unwilling to see or accept that. And that's fine.

For me tolerance allows others the integrity of their beliefs and convictions so long as they do not attempt to force others to agree or obey them. I am not threatened by your non belief. Some of you seem to feel terribly threatened by my belief however. I wonder why that is?

The reason is that "belief" constitutes "irrationality". On the Dawkins thread I cited Haris's view that religious moderates were complicit in the deeds of fanatics by tolerating/encouraging the same irrationalities ...particularly belief in an "afterlife".

But it is not irrational to believe in what we have experienced in our own lives, and Christianity is an experiential religion. It seems to me to be far more irrational to presume to know what somebody else has or has not experienced.

So if I am not threatened by an irrational assumption on your part, why would you be threatened by what you consider to be my irrational belief so long as I have no power to require anybody else to profess it?