Jesus said I am the way.

You've mentioned that generous but unfortunate lady before.

John Lennon said "I Am The Walrus".

Did he speak the truth?

You do have a theological background fresco. Your not realising does not alter that. It is a matter of practicality and not of speculation. It is very sophisticated. If one makes a translation of "speculation" as "airy-fairy nonsense", which I take it you mean, then you are making a value judgment which is probably highly subjective.

There is a historical background to all our lives despite a good deal of modern literature brushing it to one side in order to concentrate on the isolate ego.

I'm not well up on Raymond Williams but I think he makes a Marxist case for that historicism in Jane Austen. It is to do with whether a set of values derives from economic class factors or vice versa.

Religious texts do not seek to transcend anything and they claim nothing. They simply exist.

Spendius wrote:


Go tell that to the Archbishop of Canterbury. Or the Pope. Or Osama binLarder.

They are, or seem to be, interpreters of religious texts and not the texts which is what my comment was referring to.

With regret, the reason you are usually on my "ignore list" is that you tend to be argumentative for the sake of it.

I am completely aware of the Heideggerian argument that I cannot escape my "theological cultural background". So what ? My comment implies lack of "formal theological training" in which no doubt "union with God" is a module in some degree course.
Your second post about the status of religious texts completely ignores the attitude of clerics to them, and their historical role as tribal word magic. To say they merely "exist" is something of an ontological understatement, which in a discussion with respect to Derrida could be extended to several pages ...but not here.

LATER EDIT
Surely my minor error in using "texts" rather than "clerical claimants" was hardly worthy of a pedantic post.

Surely it was?
You admitting to a "minor" error is a quite significant event I would say.

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A thought which is consistent with who you state you are spiritually. A module on 'union with God in some degree course or formal theological training', seem to me to be the method by which most people who start out with some sort of spiritual or theistic leanings most often end up losing them and in fact the entire 'text' of what it is they feel or know or knew in some part of themselves.

I'm not saying this negatively at all (as it relates to you) just pointing out that it hasn't really ever been my experience that 'believing' is something that can be learned or taught in a course- so your lack of formal theological training is not really any deficiency.

These texts do just exist and can only be imbued with transcendent 'powers' by the individual who interprets them- despite what the clerics would try to convince one of.

All the million of man/woman centuries wasted on this kind on nonsense issues concerning a fairy tale not to mention the rivers of human blood that had been spilled over Jesus and his teachings and his aspects.

Can we not grow up just a little bit here?

Yeah and then you get to the end and you have all the answers- where's the fun in that?

aidan-- Bill is one of those people who avoids thinking about the real causes of the mayhem in the world by the simple expedient of putting it all down to religion. It's a bit like putting a bag over your head in order to acheive a clarity of vision which has the additional advantage of allowing him to pose as a humane person who is very concerned about the welfare of his fellow man.

The obvious cause of all the mayhem is, of course, *******. There were a number of heresies associated with not ******* in the previous periods of our history, Cathars for example, following Jesus, which were ruthlessly crushed by the Church. Had they caught on they would have led to a population in Europe of such a size as to be unable to resist encroachments from the peripheries and without the slightest capacity to find and develop the Americas or, if other cultures are anything to go by, to discover the science of dynamic space on which our whole technological accomplishments are based.

So Bill's very existence, and his luxurious lifestyle, is a direct consequence of the "rivers of blood" about which he holds forth so engagingly and with the approval of all the other idiots who feel a need to spout in public without them having had the botheration of getting a proper education which is understandable on account of the effort involved in such a thing.

Obviously it is much more complex than that but I would have to compose a post of such length to even give a flavour of it that I fear it would try Bill's patience past its toleratiojn point were I to try.

Silly silly person only a very small percent of the human race will give up ******* for any reason.

Even in the cathars groups only a very small number of that group gave up ******* to be more perfect and less tie to the material universe.

Most was less perfect members with families. It is late so I can not come up with the name of the two groupings and I do not feel like googling it either.

In any case the blood that was spill in wiping them out was a complete waste and a damn shame as is 99.9999 percent of the acts done in the name of god.

Even if Jesus is a fairy tale character -if those who'd said they were following him and had ever really listened to anything he'd said, and obeyed it- there wouldn't have been ANY wars or rivers of blood.


They were using him and his cause as a smokescreen for the unfortunate tendency human beings have toward acquisition. You know - 'we've found the way, the truth, and the life and now we'd like to give it to all the other unfortunate heathens and pagans who populate the earth - but oh yeah, while we're at it, it seems like a convenient time to take their land and resources and make it another one of our own 'Christian' nations'- and creating a teachable moment - we'll teach them that it's more blessed to give than to receive.
Don't blame that **** on Jesus.

That's what I'd say. I guess what Spendius is saying is that we've all (including you) been the beneficiaries of the spoils our Christian nation has acquired via spilling those rivers of blood Bill - and he's right.
It seems a little disingenuous to accept the spoils of those wars while maligning the character of the entity whose name they were fought in- refusing to recognize even the fact that if people had followed his actual instructions - the world might be a better and more peaceful place for everyone.

Spendius also said:


Don't you mean making love within the sanctity of marriage as a means of procreating? Come on Spendius - don't be afraid to call it what it was.
Anyway - yeah, I think it's more complicated than that - but it sounds good to boil it down to one such descriptive and pithy word.

The history had shown that the followers of Jesus are as a group are as evil and as likely to kill their neighbors in wholesale lots as any other group if not more so.

Hell they had kill each others over minors disagreement in the details of the fairy tale story.

Sorry when you are a true believer in an irrational idea it seem to alway lead in one manner or another into reasons to kill your fellow man.

I wouldn't say 'more so'.


Yeah - like right now for instance, we wanted so badly for the Iraqi's to experience the gift of democracy- that we made up the fairy story of weapons of mass destruction, so we'd have a plausible excuse to give it to them.

The only difference between then and now is what people call themselves and which fairy story seems most acceptable and believable at any given moment.

Human beings seem to need to make war.

aidan,

I previously mentioned Krishnamurti's rejection of "gurus" or Jesus figures. Is "democracy" ever going to work in cultures steeped in a particular guru tradition ?

While I don’t think those who despise Christianity for whatever reason will much care, I would like to speak a bit in defense of Jesus of Nazareth and present some evidence of why we can believe that ‘he is the way’.

First it is necessary to take those who have corrupted Jesus’s teachings out of the equation. Those who call themselves Christian are imperfect humans and throughout history have practiced imperfection in their attitudes, writings, and conduct. This seems to be a syndrome apparent in all religions, however, so perhaps we can set aside the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Burnings, and other unattractive manifestations that some humans have come up with. Jesus did not teach any of that stuff, and, to Christianity's credit, it has evolved beyond that phase so that very few if any of the billions of Christians on Earth today condone that kind of stuff.

Second it is necessary to set aside the human dogma built into the various Church denominations who profess Christianity. Every single one of the various schisms and divisions in the Church came about through people wanting to get it absolutely right. And of course, since we are dealing with imperfect humans, every single one got some stuff right and got some stuff wrong and so it will almost certainly be until the end of days. And none of that takes anything away from who Jesus taught that we should be.

Secular critics of Christianity generally promote a thesis that Christianity has been a negative force in the world while non-Christian and non-religious alternatives are superior. But if there had been no man called Jesus, I think we would inhabit a far more brutal and unpleasant world. An honest appraisal of history will show that despite its darkest moment, Christianity has overall been a force for good.

Lets look at some of that legacy:

In every aspect of human interaction"law, government, economics, fine arts, science, education, and health care"you find positive contributions of those motivated by their Christian faith.

Despite occasional reversion to patriarchal systems in the Church, Jesus elevated women, oppressed in almost every culture, to a much higher status of dignity, respect, and opportunity. By elevating marriage and sexual morality and rejecting polygyny, prostitution, and bestiality all common during pagan times, Christianity revolutionized the place, power, and prestige of women.

Prior to the advent of Christ’s Church, the Greeks and Romans had little or interest in the poor, the sick, and the dying. By following Jesus’ example, from the very beginning Christians ministered to the whole person regardless of sociopolitical status or social standing. It was Christians who built the first hospitals and assigned people to alleviate human suffering. The first Council of Nicea in 369 directed the bishops to establish hospices in every city and by the Middle Ages Christians had established the first hospitals as the world’s first voluntary charitable institutions and the only ones willing to minister to the mentally ill.

The higher classed Greeks and Romans considered menial labor beneath their dignity and suitable only for slaves and indentured servants. It was Jesus’ teachings emulated by his followers who valued labor as respectable and honorable and worthy of the wages it generated.

Christianity sowed the seeds of democratic government, appreciation and protection of property rights and the unalienable God-given rights of all people everywhere. The world would be much poorer without contribution of Christianity to science, architecture, art, literature, and music. Who among us would not miss the contributions of da Vinci, Michelangelo, Rembrandt, Bach, Handel, Brahms, Dante, Milton, Bunyan, and countless others? Would you think the world poorer if there had been no Christian involvement in building great universities, organizing the first trade unions, or protesting routine human violence until it was mostly eliminated?

And today where are the soup kitchens, homeless shelters, hospices, thrift shops, leper colonies, orphanages, halfway houses, or treatment centers organized and staffed with anti-religionists, Christian critics, Atheists? Good luck in finding those because they are few and far between. In fact such are much more often organized and run by the most fundamentalist and ‘narrow minded’ Christians

If there had been no Jesus, we would likely have never had Western civilization as we know it.

And the world would be a much more bleak and harsh and inhospitable place with much less hope, opportunity, or encouragement for everybody.

Maybe there is something to the basic idea of Jesus being the way?

Great post Foxy.

Yes it was