10
   

Jesus said I am the way.

 
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 01:37 pm
@spendius,
Code:Great post Foxy.


Agreed.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 01:57 pm
@Merry Andrew,
Compare Foxy's English language skills with that of our opponents and then decide in whose hands education should be in.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 02:13 pm
@aidan,
that we made up the fairy story of weapons of mass destruction, so we'd have a plausible excuse to give it to them.
=======================================================
There are weapons of mass destructions in the world tens of thousands of such weapons enough to kill the human race many times over.

There is no son of god born of a virgin birth who could raised a man dead for days however!

An error on who does or does not have such weapons is not the same as a fairy tale concerning a god/man and have zero connection with such nonsense.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 02:19 pm
@Foxfyre,
If there had been no Jesus, we would likely have never had Western civilization as we know it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What nonsense that a irrational believe in a supernatural being of any kind is helpful in any way or in any manner in the building of our society.

We can see how damn helpful such a belief system is in the ongoing attacks on science and our understanding of the universe driven by the followers of Jesus.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 02:23 pm
@Foxfyre,
I thought it was a good post too Foxfyre - but I'm wondering about this statement:
Quote:
In fact such are much more often organized and run by the most fundamentalist and ‘narrow minded’ Christians

in relation to organizations who care for the disabled and disenfranchised.
Can you explain exactly whom you're referring to ( when you say 'the most fundamentalist and narrow minded Christians')?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 02:44 pm
@Merry Andrew,
So you think that Fozy did a great post merry Andrew?

If the followers of Jesus would have their way we would now be enjoying a society where the earth would still be view as the center of the universe and if anyone would dare to challenge any of the details of the fairy tale he or she would be slowly torture to death.

See history.

The only times society had move forward was periods where the grip of religion was weaken from the mind of man.

Lying for Jesus is a common happening to this day. A fine example was the false claims that the major of the founding fathers of the US were all good Christians and the US were founded as a so call Christian nation.

Without this cult of Jesus we would be far far further down the road of having a rational society in my opinion. The worst failing of the Roman Empire was not killing off this cult.


aidan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 02:55 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
An error on who does or does not have such weapons is not the same as a fairy tale concerning a god/man and have zero connection with such nonsense.

I see your point, but my point has nothing to do with whether one is true and the other is not.

The manipulative use of misinformation and/or psychologically motivating factors resulted in exactly the same outcome you decried as being caused by Christians and other religious people, without religion even being mentioned this time.

All I'm saying is that you can't (or shouldn't) blame the Christian aspect of a person for the actions of the warmongering aspect of that same person. If you do - you're not cognizant of what Christ instructed that person to be or do in his or her Christian life.

It's as if Jesus gave us a recipe for chocolate cake, but we decided to follow the recipe for carrot cake and now we're blaming Jesus that we didn't end up with a chocolate cake (to put it in the simplest, most concrete terms I can think of- not because I don't think you're smart - I do - and I don't care what your written grammar looks like- I think you make a lot of good points that I understand, and in fact, agree with}.
I just know that I can get sort of vague when I'm trying to explain myself - so I'm trying to make sure I'm clear.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 03:05 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
I previously mentioned Krishnamurti's rejection of "gurus" or Jesus figures. Is "democracy" ever going to work in cultures steeped in a particular guru tradition ?

I'm not familiar with Krishnamurti's stance specifically, but I'd instinctively say that much would depend on which guru a society decides to deify.

I myself DO find the teachings of Jesus Christ to be consistent with the ideals of democracy. But again, his teachings have never been consistently enacted - certainly not that I've seen either by the government or the majority of individuals within the United States.

The ideas and ideals of democracy and the entire concept of the United States -are wonderful - as are the ideas and ideals of Christianity. But as Foxfyre pointed out- most people are not committed to enacting them on a day to day basis.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 03:36 pm
@aidan,
aidan wrote:

Quote:
I previously mentioned Krishnamurti's rejection of "gurus" or Jesus figures. Is "democracy" ever going to work in cultures steeped in a particular guru tradition ?

I'm not familiar with Krishnamurti's stance specifically, but I'd instinctively say that much would depend on which guru a society decides to deify.

I myself DO find the teachings of Jesus Christ to be consistent with the ideals of democracy. But again, his teachings have never been consistently enacted - certainly not that I've seen either by the government or the majority of individuals within the United States.

The ideas and ideals of democracy and the entire concept of the United States -are wonderful - as are the ideas and ideals of Christianity. But as Foxfyre pointed out- most people are not committed to enacting them on a day to day basis.


I think there is a difference between saying that no people perfectly enact the ideas and ideals of Christianity and and saying that most people are not committed to enacting them on a day to day basis.

Even imperfectly folowing their Christian teachings, the evidence of the world-changing good that Christians have accomplished would suggest that it is incorrect to say that "most people are not committed to enacting them on a day to day basis." It is my opinion that most Christians are overtly or subjectively committed, which is why Christian cultures, even those in which Christianity is not very visible, are usually the most enlightened, humane, free, and prosperous. Those cultures in which Christianity shaped the value system affects everybody and tempers their behavior toward others. It has a positive effect even among the minority who do not count themselves among the believers.


I believe that should you remove all the Christians from Earth, the Holy Spirit will go with them, and those left behind will indeed then get a graphic image of what the depths of hell will look like.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 03:49 pm
@aidan,
Foxy
You did note that I commended your other post...right?
It was well written and while I don't agree with all your points about the good deeds of "narrow minded" christians...it was a good post.

I don't think you're arrogant but I think your religion is

Foxfire said
Quote:
I believe that should you remove all the Christians from Earth, the Holy Spirit will go with them, and those left behind will indeed then get a graphic image of what the depths of hell will look like.

If a Muslim was overheard to say this(substituting Muslims and Koran for Christians and the Holy Spirit ) wouldn't you consider them arrogant?

edit: meant to answer foxy not aidan
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 04:21 pm
@panzade,
Since Muslims don't believe that, I can't imagine a Muslim saying such a thing, but I don't consider Muslims arrogant who profess the basis tenets of their faith which they consider superior to all faiths and mandatory for all. I accept that as their belief, and, so long as they do not require the unwilling to follow it, who am I to suggest they are bad to believe it?

Christians do believe that Jesus, via the Holy Spirit, does change people for the better and does modify the behavior and attitudes of adherents to the Faith and those who share turf with the Faithful. But so long as they do not require the unwilling to accept Christian belief, how is it a problem for anybody else for Christians to believe it?

My own spiritual journey has taken me deeply into all of the world's great religions, and I am 100% convinced that each and every one has pieces of the truth. Each and every one has accomplished some good among the people who embrace it. But none, except perhaps proportionately the tiny group that is Judaism, can claim the far reaching force for good that Christianity can claim.

I am willing to share my faith with anybody who is interested. I do not expect or require anybody else to agree with it and don't criticize anybody who does not. So how is it any more arrogant to state what Christians believe than is the doctrine of those who accuse Christianity of being baseless or superstition or fairy tales?

It seems to me that Christianity has the far better defense in a fair and open debate. Smile
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 04:24 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

While I don’t think those who despise Christianity for whatever reason will much care, I would like to speak a bit in defense of Jesus of Nazareth and present some evidence of why we can believe that ‘he is the way’.

First it is necessary to take those who have corrupted Jesus’s teachings out of the equation. Those who call themselves Christian are imperfect humans and throughout history have practiced imperfection in their attitudes, writings, and conduct. This seems to be a syndrome apparent in all religions, however, so perhaps we can set aside the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Burnings, and other unattractive manifestations that some humans have come up with. Jesus did not teach any of that stuff, and, to Christianity's credit, it has evolved beyond that phase so that very few if any of the billions of Christians on Earth today condone that kind of stuff.

Second it is necessary to set aside the human dogma built into the various Church denominations who profess Christianity. Every single one of the various schisms and divisions in the Church came about through people wanting to get it absolutely right. And of course, since we are dealing with imperfect humans, every single one got some stuff right and got some stuff wrong and so it will almost certainly be until the end of days. And none of that takes anything away from who Jesus taught that we should be.

Secular critics of Christianity generally promote a thesis that Christianity has been a negative force in the world while non-Christian and non-religious alternatives are superior. But if there had been no man called Jesus, I think we would inhabit a far more brutal and unpleasant world. An honest appraisal of history will show that despite its darkest moment, Christianity has overall been a force for good.

Lets look at some of that legacy:


In every aspect of human interaction"law, government, economics, fine arts, science, education, and health care"you find positive contributions of those motivated by their Christian faith.

Despite occasional reversion to patriarchal systems in the Church, Jesus elevated women, oppressed in almost every culture, to a much higher status of dignity, respect, and opportunity. By elevating marriage and sexual morality and rejecting polygyny, prostitution, and bestiality all common during pagan times, Christianity revolutionized the place, power, and prestige of women.

Prior to the advent of Christ’s Church, the Greeks and Romans had little or interest in the poor, the sick, and the dying. By following Jesus’ example, from the very beginning Christians ministered to the whole person regardless of sociopolitical status or social standing. It was Christians who built the first hospitals and assigned people to alleviate human suffering. The first Council of Nicea in 369 directed the bishops to establish hospices in every city and by the Middle Ages Christians had established the first hospitals as the world’s first voluntary charitable institutions and the only ones willing to minister to the mentally ill.

The higher classed Greeks and Romans considered menial labor beneath their dignity and suitable only for slaves and indentured servants. It was Jesus’ teachings emulated by his followers who valued labor as respectable and honorable and worthy of the wages it generated.

Christianity sowed the seeds of democratic government, appreciation and protection of property rights and the unalienable God-given rights of all people everywhere. The world would be much poorer without contribution of Christianity to science, architecture, art, literature, and music. Who among us would not miss the contributions of da Vinci, Michelangelo, Rembrandt, Bach, Handel, Brahms, Dante, Milton, Bunyan, and countless others? Would you think the world poorer if there had been no Christian involvement in building great universities, organizing the first trade unions, or protesting routine human violence until it was mostly eliminated?

And today where are the soup kitchens, homeless shelters, hospices, thrift shops, leper colonies, orphanages, halfway houses, or treatment centers organized and staffed with anti-religionists, Christian critics, Atheists? Good luck in finding those because they are few and far between. In fact such are much more often organized and run by the most fundamentalist and ‘narrow minded’ Christians

If there had been no Jesus, we would likely have never had Western civilization as we know it.

And the world would be a much more bleak and harsh and inhospitable place with much less hope, opportunity, or encouragement for everybody.

Maybe there is something to the basic idea of Jesus being the way?




A review of How Christianity Changed the World.

By Alvin Schmidt.


It is common today for the church to be on the receiving end of much criticism. The church is blamed for many of the ills in the world, but is seldom given credit for any good it has done. Indeed, many argue that it is the church that is blocking progress to a more enlightened and peaceable world.

One gets the impression from these secular critics that Christianity has been a negative force in the world, while non-Christian and non-religious alternatives are somehow superior. However, those conversant with the historical record know better. While Christendom has had its dark moments in history, over all, it can be credibly argued that it has been a force for good in the world.

In Kenneth Scott Latourette’s massive 7-volume history of the expansion of the Christian Church, the Yale historian concluded by noting just how much good this expansion had contributed to the world. More recently D. James Kennedy wrote a brief volume entitled What if Jesus Had Never Been Born? The world would be much worse off, he argued, if it weren’t for this man Jesus.

The most recent and perhaps most thorough examination of the historical record is that of Alvin Schmidt. The American professor of sociology has assembled evidence from various quarters to demonstrate what a powerful influence Christianity has had on Western Civilization. In every area, be it law, government, economics, the fine arts, science, education or health care, the Christian faith has contributed enormously to the overall well-being of mankind.

In this well-documented volume of over 400 pages, Schmidt marshals the evidence for the transforming power of the Christian faith. He shows how Jesus has the power to transform men, who in turn are able to transform society. And on every level, that is exactly what has happened. Several specific examples can be mentioned.

In spite the claims of some today that Christianity oppresses women, the historical record shows just the opposite. Women were oppressed in almost every culture prior to the coming of Christianity. By elevating sexual morality, and by conferring upon women a much higher status, the Christian religion revolutionised the place and prestige of women.

For example, the great importance given to marriage meant that women were spared much of the abuse and mistreatment that they were accustomed to. By rejecting polygyny, prostitution, homosexuality and bestiality " all common during the time " the early Christians not only sheltered women but protected children and family.

The way Jesus treated women was in stark contrast to the surrounding culture. In Roman law a man’s wife and children were little more than slaves, often treated like animals. Women had no property rights and faced severe social restrictions. Jesus of course changed all that. The way he treated the Samaritan woman was one remarkable example. And this was not lost on the early disciples. We know from the New Testament documents that many women exercised various leadership roles in the early church. Indeed, during this period Christian women actually outnumbered Christian men.

Admittedly there were some anomalies later in the church’s history, when chauvinistic and anti-feminine views were allowed to re-enter parts of the church. But such aberrations must not detract from the truly revolutionary elevation of the status of women achieved by Christianity.

Consider also the issue of health care. Prior to Christianity, the Greeks and Romans had little or no interest in the poor, the sick and the dying. But the early Christians, following the example of their master, ministered to the needs of the whole person. During the first three centuries of the church they could only care for the sick where they found them, as believers were then a persecuted people. Once the persecutions subsided, however, the institutonalisation of health care began in earnest.

For example, the first ecumenical council at Nicea in 325 directed bishops to establish hospices in every city that had a cathedral. The first hospital was built by St Basil in Caesarea in 369. By the Middle Ages hospitals covered all of Europe and even beyond. In fact, “Christian hospitals were the world’s first voluntary charitable institutions”.

Care for the mentally ill was also a Christian initiative. Nursing also sprang from Christian concerns for the sick, and many Christians have given their lives to such tasks. One thinks of Florence Nightingale, for example, and the formation of the Red Cross.

Education, while important in Greek and Roman culture, really took off institutionally under the influence of Christianity. The early Greeks and Romans had no public libraries or educational institutions " it was Christianity that established these. As discipleship was important for the first believers (and those to follow), early formal education arose from Christian catechetical schools. Unique to Christian education was the teaching of both sexes.

Also a Christian distinctive, individuals from all social and ethnic groups were included. There was no bias based on ethnicity or class. And the concept of public education first came from the Protestant Reformers. Moreover, the rise of the modern university is largely the result of Christian educational endeavours.

As another example of the Christian influence, consider the issue of work and economic life. The Greeks and Romans had a very low view of manual labour, and so it was mainly the slaves and lower classes that were forced to toil with their hands. The non-slave population lived chiefly for personal pleasure. In these early cultures slaves usually greatly outnumbered freemen.

Thus there was no such thing as the dignity of labour in these cultures, and economic freedom was only for a select few. The early church changed all this. Jesus of course was a carpenter’s son. Paul was a tentmaker. And the early admonition, “If a man will not work, he shall not eat” was taken seriously by the early believers. Thus work was seen as an honorable and God-given calling. Laziness and idleness were seen as sinful.

The idea of labor as a calling, and the idea spoken by Jesus that the laborer is worthy of his wages, revolutionised the workplace. The dignity of labor, the value of hard work, and the sense of vocation, soon changed the surrounding society; the development of a middle class being one of the outcomes. The development of unions is another result. Indeed, the works of Weber and Tawney, among others, records the profound effect the Protestant Reformation has had on work and modern capitalism.

More impacts can be noted. The commandment against stealing of course redefined the concept of private property and property rights. And the protection of workers and workers’ rights also flows directly from the biblical worldview. The early unionists were Christians, and concerns for social justice in the workplace and beyond derive from the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Other great achievements might be mentioned. The Western political experience, including genuine democracy at all levels of society, equality, human rights and various freedoms, all stem from the Christian religion, along with its Hebrew forebear. The rise of modern science has been directly linked with the biblical understanding of the world. The many great achievements in art, literature and music also deserve mention. For example, how much poorer would the world be without the Christian artistry of da Vinci, Michelangelo, Rembrandt, Bach, Handel, Brahms, Dante, Milton, Bunyan, and countless others?

The bottom line, as Schmidt notes, is that if Jesus Christ had never been born, to speak of Western civilisation would be incomprehensible. Indeed, there may never have been such a civilisation. The freedoms and benefits we enjoy in many modern cultures are directly due to the influence of this one man. And besides all the institutional, cultural, social, political and artistic benefits, there is one last benefit: the countless millions of changed lives due a liberating encounter with the risen Christ. It is this benefit, first and foremost, which of course accounts for all the institutional benefits.

One could argue that changed lives alone are a sufficient testimony to this unique man. But of course changed lives result in changed families, changed neighborhoods, changed societies. The transformation of individuals and nations for the better can all be attributed to this one man, born in a manger but soon to return as ruler of the universe.

In sum, Alvin Schmidt deserves an enormous amount of gratitude for this sterling collection of information and inspiration. Christians have made many mistakes. But they have also achieved many great things, all because of the one whom they follow.




aidan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 04:25 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
I think there is a difference between saying that no people perfectly enact the ideas and ideals of Christianity and and saying that most people are not committed to enacting them on a day to day basis.

Yes, but on a day to day basis, it would seem to me that the effects would be similar.

Quote:
Even imperfectly folowing their Christian teachings, the evidence of the world-changing good that Christians have accomplished would suggest that it is incorrect to say that "most people are not committed to enacting them on a day to day basis."

I'm talking about the people in general in what is described as our 'Christian' nations- I'm not referencing only Christians, who though they are imperfect and human are committed to Christian ideals. That's why I said 'people' instead of specifically saying 'Christians'.



Quote:
I believe that should you remove all the Christians from Earth, the Holy Spirit will go with them, and those left behind will indeed then get a graphic image of what the depths of hell will look like

Yikes - this is where that 'fundamentalism' must come in and it strikes even me as somewhat 'narrow-minded' and counter-productive to any sort of understanding between all the different peoples' of the world.
Nope - I just can't buy that- and it would seem to contradict your theory of the residual effect of Christianity on a society which you stated here:
Quote:
Those cultures in which Christianity shaped the value system affects everybody and tempers their behavior toward others. It has a positive effect even among the minority who do not count themselves among the believers.

So if all the Christians left - the nonbelievers or those who belief in any god that is not Christ, would suddenly revert or regress to untempered behaviors?
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 04:27 pm
@BillRM,
I don't know why you're pickin' on me, Bill. Others also appreciated Foxy's eloquently stated position. You say:

Quote:
If the followers of Jesus would have their way we would now be enjoying a society where the earth would still be view as the center of the universe and if anyone would dare to challenge any of the details of the fairy tale he or she would be slowly torture to death.


Well, of course, 'the followers of Jesus' have had 'their way' pretty much. Have you noticed how we count our years? And why this is 2009 and not some other year? And we count 'em that way whether we happen to be Christians or atheists mor Budhists or Muslims or whatevah. What you're describing in the rest of that paragraph (geocentric theory, absolute power of church, corporal punishment etc.) belongs to a specific historic period. It's how things were done in the middle ages. You're forgetting that the scientists who gave us our present outlook on life were mostly Christians -- Galileo, Kepler, Newton etc. Do you believe that it would have been any different had the ruling powers in Europe been Druids instead of Roman Catholic clergy? If, instead of a Christian ethic, we had continued to practice human sacrifice as the ancient Celts did?

You advise me to see history? I don't know how strong a grip you have on history, but my knowledge of the subject is substantial. I have taught history at the senior high school level and am quite competent to teach it at college level.

You say: "The only times society had move forward was periods where the grip of religion was weaken from the mind of man." No offense, but I have some difficulty following your line of thought due to your inability to write grammatically coherent sentences. If I understand you correctly, however, you are saying that the only time there was any human progress was at times when religious influence on the general population was small or non-existent. Perhaps that's true. I'm racking my brain trying to figure out when and where such times would have been. The notion of separation of church and state is a fairly recent phenomenon; there was no such thing 'back in the day.' And yet all these scientists, oppressed by religion, were able to formulate and publish some outstanding work. Amazing.

You also write:

Quote:
Without this cult of Jesus we would be far far further down the road of having a rational society in my opinion. The worst failing of the Roman Empire was not killing off this cult.


Again, see my comments above. Do you really think that worshipping at the altar of Mars before a battle would be preferable to the currently common method of worship? I don't think you've really thought about your position much.

What would the world be like without the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth? Probably not too different from what it is today. Human nature doesn't change all that much over just a couple of millenia and, truth be told, Jesus' message wasn't all that original or unique. The so-called Golden Rule, attributed to Jesus, only echoes what Rabbi Hillel had already said a couple of hundred years earlier. The vaunted stoicism of the early Christians could well be due to the influence of the teachings of the Buddha which had reached pockets in the Near East by the time of Jesus. (The "three Wise Men", the Magi, coming out of Persia, were quite likely followers of Budhist teaching.)

It's easy enough to scapegoat Christians and Christianity as the reason why the world is the mess that it is. Actually, it's not due to any single teaching, religious or secular. It's because mankind is what it is -- imperfect, seeking, messing up more often than gdetting it right. Bless us.

0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 04:40 pm
@aidan,
aidan write
Quote:
So if all the Christians left - the nonbelievers would suddenly revert to their former untempered behaviors?


In addition to the quoted one, I think I at least sort of addressed your other points in my response to Panzade.

But no, I don't think nonbelievers would suddenly revert to their former untempered behaviors. But the concept of the Holy Spirit is not a fundamentalist one. It is a basic component of the Faith--the spirit of God that the Christian invites or at least allows to take over as much as the Christian is able to allow> It is what many/most Christian believe drives us when we are truly committed to the Faith.

Different Christians/Christian groups will explain this differently and believe somewhat different things about how it works, but the concept of an indwelling Christ--the Holy Spirit--is what makes a Christian a Christian. And for many if not most, for perhaps mostly all Christians it is what drives the Church and makes it Christ's presence here on Earth regardless of what name individual groups call it.

You remove all that force for good from the Earth and there won't be a whole lot left to keep unbridled evil in check. And I think those willing to commit the worst inhumanity to man will crowd out, shout down, suppress, or destroy those who try to hold on to the highest ethical and moral principles.

You only have to look to many societies where the Church is banned or severely suppressed to see it.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 04:41 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Since Muslims don't believe that, I can't imagine a Muslim saying such a thing,


OK Foxy, You neatly side-stepped my question. So I'll rephrase it. Don't you think it's arrogant for Christians (or any religion)to state that if their religion disappeared we would be reduced to a hellish maelstrom on this earth?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 04:44 pm
@panzade,
No Panzade. I neither sidestepped your question nor avoided it nor changed the subject. You must not have read past my opening sentence in that post.

Okay if a Muslim would say something like that, I wouldn't think him arrogant. I would think him nuts or at least totally ignorant re what his religion teaches. His religion stipulates nothing like that. Christianity does.

But for me to state what I believe is not arrogant unless I consider you inferior if you do not believe it. Are you arrogant when you say that such a thing is not true? Or are you arrogant only when you consider me inferior if I don't share your belief? Are you arrogant if you say that you believe Christianity is nothing but a made up deal or a bunch of fairy tales or superstitious nonsense? Or can you say that without being arrogant if you accept that my belief is equally real and justifiable to me?
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 04:58 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Okay if a Muslim would say something like that, I wouldn't think him arrogant. I would think him nuts or at least totally ignorant re what his religion teaches.


I don't know enough about the Muslim religion to debate that

Quote:
But for me to state what I believe is not arrogant


I think I already said I didn't think you were arrogant, but I think that your belief(no Christianity= hell on earth) is arrogant

Quote:
Or are you arrogant only when you consider me inferior if I don't share your belief?


I don't believe any well-spoken Christian poster like you is inferior

I would be arrogant if I considered you inferior because you don't share my non-belief.

The difference(and it's a big one) between my non-belief and my evangelical friends' beliefs is that they are totally consumed(very often in a patronizing way) by their efforts to save me from my non-belief, whereas I am quite content to leave them to their beliefs.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 05:00 pm
@Foxfyre,
I think that for me, the arrogance comes in when you seem to be attributing more power or force for good to adherents of one set of spiritual teachings which, as Merry Andrew has said, tend to mirror many other sets of spiritual teachings- because it happens to be the one you were reared in or have chosen for your own.

It's the one I was reared in, and I value all that I've gotten from it, but I can't imagine telling someone else who was reared in another spiritual tradition, which may ask them to behave almost exactly as I've been taught to behave - that if I and all my fellow christians were to leave the earth - the enactment of their version of spiritual truth would result in hell on earth...!

And in so many words - what you are telling them is exactly what you say that you're not - that they do have to believe what you believe-not even just to make it into heaven - but to preserve life here on earth.

And I'm sure you're not a warmonger - but that sort of Christianity is probably exactly what led to the great lengths the 'Church' went to convert everyone through crusading, torture and war, as Bill stated.

Yeah- that's why I can't sit in most churches anymore.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 05:13 pm
Read Herodotus and find out what the pre-Christian world was like.

Then Thucydides if you have a tough shell.

And Flaubert researched the lot and put it all in Salammbo.

 

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