Jesus said I am the way.

@dyslexia,

dyslexia wrote:

this post is directed to foxfyre (or anyone else) who cites the polls indicating 80% (whatever) americans profess a belief in "god." My parents did not believe (even slightly) that jesus was the son of god or divinely inspired or that the bible was any more than an interesting account of the history of jewish philosophy, but, they always felt and expressed that they were "christians." My guess is that my parents approved in the ethos of the beatitudes. They would have been in that 80% that report being "christian."

This is very likely the case. I don't think that any of us believe that 80% of the population believe the same thing. Or, that they even belief in Jesus. The polls indicate that they believe in God. Trinity notwithstanding.

I have no doubt that your parents were good people. If they followed the beatitudes and were not, otherwise, religious I can see where they might be in the percentage indicated. Based on this, I would certainly not consider them atheist.

I have no doubt that you too are a good person. The fact that you do not follow an organized religion does not take away from that.

You certainly have no qualms about disagreeing with those of us who do consider ourselves Christians. But, unlike Bill, you do not use our religion to mock, criticsize or try to humiliate us. That also puts Bill in a very small minority.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Until then I will continue to believe that America continues to be a mostly religious country, more of the religious are Christian than something else, and we will be the poorer for it when that is no longer the case.
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We all know you are the type that is more then willing to belief in fairy tales so your statement is not a great surprise now is it<grin>.

No, Bill. We do not all know that.

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
even here it is mostly lip service thank “god”.

So you are now deciding who is only paying lip service are you? All the "Christians" you cite as committing evil deeds I assume you have down as not just paying lip service and being true believers.

You're treating us as if we are stupid.

Hmm, did you notice that Bill is thanking God? Maybe he is being converted even as we read.

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@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

It is that we Americans stand in the shoes of our forefathers.

Hand me down shoes eh? You can get athlete's foot with them Dave.

You have to laugh though. These guns you fire under strictly controlled conditions have to be made at prices you can afford. That means mass production and not just of the guns. The steel. The distribution of the steel. The distribution of energy to make the steel. The energy to run the machines which turn the steel into working parts. I'm simplifying of course. It seems to be necessary here.

Then there's the ammo. That's a whole other world.

The tanks and the rockets and the drones require even more control.

You're a romantic Dave. Absolutely. A totally deluded romantic.

1 Reply

@spendius,

We had the very best congress money can buy would you like some examples of this?

Let see how about extending the copyright laws another 20 years after the death of the creator so big movies companies etc can benefit for another 20 years off old films and this is for the benefit of the public in some manner or in some way?

The bank deregulation that cause the hole we are in now driven by people with bags of money buying our congressmen to pass laws not in the public interest.

Taking the limit off credit card interest so it could be as high as 30 plus percent this was somehow in the best interest of the public in some manner?

Limiting the re-importing of drugs back into this country this is for the benefit of the public or instead the drug companies?

Changing the bankruptcies laws to made it harder and more costly for the average person to declare bankruptcies this is for the benefit of the credit card companies or the average citizens?

Reducing grants for college education and in it place increasing the loan programs this is for the benefit of the students or the banks?

Yes we never had it better try telling that to the families losing their homes after being lay of form their jobs thank to the mess that the ruling class had created.

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@Foxfyre,

Quote:

And I think those countries that have been designed or established more or less as Christian nations have mostly accomplished more peaceful societies with more guarantees of individual rights and freedoms than most other nations can claim.

5 out of the top 6 most murder-prone nations are established Christian nations with dubious guarantees of individual rights and freedoms.

I'm thinking that the US;established on Christian principles was throughout its history a pretty war-like nation taking land and territories from weaker nations and meddling with others political structures incessantly.

I'll grant you we DO enjoy relatively advanced freedom and individual rights

Quote:

# 1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
# 2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people
# 3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people
# 4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people
# 5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people
# 6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

And again, I suspect I am going to be really surprised at how wrong my notions have been about many things.
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The odds sadly is that you will not be surprised at anything as there is every reason to believe that your own personal universe will come to a complete end at the moment of your death.

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@Intrepid,

Quote:

You certainly have no qualms about disagreeing with those of us who do consider ourselves Christians. But, unlike Bill, you do not use our religion to mock, criticsize or try to humiliate us. That also puts Bill in a very small minority.

hear hear

1 Reply

@panzade,

I'm thinking that the US;established on Christian principles was throughout its history a pretty war-like nation taking land and territories from weaker nations and meddling with others political structures incessantly.
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What Christian principles was we founded on?

Treaty of Tripoli 1797

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

2 Replies

@panzade,

Quote:
You certainly have no qualms about disagreeing with those of us who do consider ourselves Christians. But, unlike Bill, you do not use our religion to mock, criticsize or try to humiliate us. That also puts Bill in a very small minority.
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Now why would any one wish to mock someone who belief system is base on a god/man of a virgin mother with the power to raised the long dead as in smelling very bad indeed dead?

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@spendius,

Quote:

And they are more powerful Foxy. Don't forget that.

After rousing himself to deliver a brilliant post earlier(lauded, and rightly so), spendius succumbs to intellectual torpor. Christian nations are no more powerful than non -Christian nations....are they?

Russia , China, Japan, Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Israel and soon Iran. Would they not be ranked in the top 10?...power-wise?

Top 15?

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Quote:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

I assume that was written by the light of an oil lamp flickering in the draught coming through the cracks in the side of a log cabin and carried to the world on the back of a spavined horse at about 10 miles per week.

Are you taking the piss Bill?

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Quote:

And such observations have caused me to pause and think about how arrogant we humans are to think we are the only creatures in the universe of interest to God.

I agree and will add another Clemens quote:

Quote:

Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion--several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven....The higher animals have no religion. And we are told that they are going to be left out in the Hereafter. I wonder why? It seems questionable taste.

1 Reply

@panzade,

I don't even concern myself about how the animals, higher or otherwise, fit into the grand scheme of things other than for me it is just plain wrong to abuse or neglect or intentionally harm them and I can't bear the thought of it. I just find them wonderful and do hope that there will at least be dogs and horses in the next life.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

What Christian principles was we founded on?

Don't ask me, I was quoting Foxy

Quote:

the US;established on Christian principles

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@panzade,

Quote:

After rousing himself to deliver a brilliant post earlier(lauded, and rightly so), spendius succumbs to intellectual torpor. Christian nations are no more powerful than non -Christian nations....are they?

I think non-Christian nations are best qualified to answer that. I think Russia is essentially Christian. The Great Schism is only temporary in Darwinian timescales.

You shouldn't confuse brevity with intellectual torpor.

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Quote:

I just find them wonderful and do hope that there will at least be dogs and horses in the next life.

Greyhounds and racehorses I hope you mean Foxy.

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@spendius,

I assume that was written by the light of an oil lamp flickering in the draught coming through the cracks in the side of a log cabin and carried to the world on the back of a spavined horse at about 10 miles per week.
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Let see it was pass under the Adam Administration and right at the moment I can not think if our seat of government was in Phil or New York at the time. Jefferson was the first president to move to Washington and New York was the last seat of government before the move to Washington so it was more then likely New York.

In any case the light was more then likely from a whale oil lamp but I do no think it was written in a log cabin in either city.

And it was more then likely carry to most of the world by way of ships moving at 10 knots or so.

1 Reply

@spendius,

Quote:

I think Russia is essentially Christian.

a mouthful of hot and sour soup sprayed my monitor when I read this...puhleeeze

1 Reply

@BillRM,

kudos for the info on the treaty Bill

Quote:

From our perspective these men (Adams Barlow et al ) may be heroes, but in truth the vote they cast was ordinary, routine, normal. It was, in other words, quite well accepted, only a few years after first the Constitution and then the First Amendment were ratified, that "the Government of the United States of America was not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." After a bloody and costly civil war and the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment determined that citizens of the United States cannot have their rights abridged by state or local governments either, religious liberty for all was established. Governmental neutrality in matters of religion remains the enduring basis for that liberty.

0 Replies

Jesus said I am the way.

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