Michael Jackson's Life: What No One Wants To Discuss

@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel 's analysis is meticulously systematic
and cogently compelling. I think he 's right.

David

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Money ultimately was THE issue. He had no ore and couldnt return to a life without scads of it. Of course he diddled liddle boys, he was a pedophile who was only "not proven guilty"
(I prefer that to proven Not Guilty). Id just as soon forget him and just remember his music. Remember, singers provide a large sample of deviant behavior. (Johny Cash, Ray Charles, Jerry Lee Lewis, Rudee vAlee, Bing Crosby, Bob SeEger, Elvis, Fatty ARbuckle,Tiny Tim etc etc). I can separate Jerry Lee from "Splish Splash" (which I love). JAcksons dead and Ive got my Thriller CD

Is anyone safe
from emotion-based assumptions of guilt, Professor ?

How 'd YOU have reacted to similar extortion from one or two of your students,
either for cash or just for good grades ?

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@OmSigDAVID,

Robert put it into historic context of the legal proceedings and the obvious motive that Jackson encouraged with the same idiotic zeal as Richard Nixon ("I am not a crook") and Bill Clinton ("I did not have sex with that woman"). Nobody can steer public opinion by making simplistic declarations of innocence. Except, I never believed that MJ ever really was guilty -- it was the same blind spot in social and emotional intelligence that will turn around and bite one in the butt.

1 Reply

@Lightwizard,

If someone is accused of wrongdoing
and silently fails to deny it, some will interpret that as an admission of guilt.

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@OmSigDAVID,

It will likely be the same "some" who will believe in the guilt before one makes the statement, but, in fact, MJ was making a weak admission that he did get too close with young boys and paid no attention to those close to him who warned him to cool it. Deepak Chopra who became a close friend after asking for a consultation by MJ also tried to warn him about the prescription drug use which is very likely what killed him. It's the attitude that one is a fortress and cannot be assailed for bad intentions just because it looks that way and one is involved with individuals they misread as being sincere and honest. We know they were not but I believe MJ should have heeded the warnings and changed course long before it got to the point of nearly killing his career altogether and, at least, being partly responsible for his financial decline. His last CD set sold poorly worldwide and the return concert did little to repair the damage.

2 Replies

@Lightwizard,

Lightwizard wrote:

It will likely be the same "some" who will believe in the guilt before one makes the statement, but, in fact, MJ was making a weak admission that he did get too close with young boys and paid no attention to those close to him who warned him to cool it. Deepak Chopra who became a close friend after asking for a consultation by MJ also tried to warn him about the prescription drug use which is very likely what killed him. It's the attitude that one is a fortress and cannot be assailed for bad intentions just because it looks that way and one is involved with individuals they misread as being sincere and honest. We know they were not but I believe MJ should have heeded the warnings and changed course long before it got to the point of nearly killing his career altogether and, at least, being partly responsible for his financial decline. His last CD set sold poorly worldwide and the return concert did little to repair the damage.

He apparently went the way of his father-in-law.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

He told Marie Presley he was afraid he was going the way of her father. I don't think it was a premonition, I think he knew what road he was on and wasn't as lost as some believe he was.

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@Lightwizard,

Lightwizard wrote:

He told Marie Presley he was afraid he was going the way of her father.
I don't think it was a premonition, I think he knew what road he was on
and wasn't as lost as some believe he was.

Yeah.

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@Lightwizard,

Quote:

He told Marie Presley he was afraid he was going the way of her father.

yup

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Here's an in depth article that many of Michael's accusers dont want to read or dicuss. Extortion in the 1993 case by a bunch of greedy creeps. "Did Michael Do It? The untold story of the events that brought down a superstar" http://uspolitics.tribe.net/thread/9887c23f-a4a6-4711-901e-5f15a2e18c4d

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@Lightwizard,

Lightwizard wrote:

It will likely be the same "some" who will believe in the guilt before one makes the statement, but, in fact, MJ was making a weak admission that he did get too close with young boys and paid no attention to those close to him who warned him to cool it. Deepak Chopra who became a close friend after asking for a consultation by MJ also tried to warn him about the prescription drug use which is very likely what killed him. It's the attitude that one is a fortress and cannot be assailed for bad intentions just because it looks that way and one is involved with individuals they misread as being sincere and honest. We know they were not but I believe MJ should have heeded the warnings and changed course long before it got to the point of nearly killing his career altogether and, at least, being partly responsible for his financial decline. His last CD set sold poorly worldwide and the return concert did little to repair the damage.

I am not a mental diagnostician, but in the case of MJ,
such extreme deviations from what is normal were known
that I cannot consider him to be of sound mind. It is possible
that he did indeed sodomize the boys who associated with him.
Unless u actually see him do it or he confesses, u just don 't know for sure.
Being crazy and being a juvenile sodomite are not necessarily the same thing.
He denied that he had any sexual contact with the children,
and he admitted sleeping in the same bed with them.
Falling asleep is not a sexual act, no matter where.

From what I read, the 2 boys and their families, who accused him
of some (unspecified, so far as I am aware) sexual impropriety were extortionists.
MJ was accused of sexually abusing Macaulay Culkin, who denied it.
I have never been a fan of MJ's art, but we shoud all be safe from extortion.
The wealthy are especially at risk.

How shoud we define "getting too close" to children ?
Is it limited to keeping them out of our beds ?
If any of us has a juvenile guest who is freightened in a thunderstorm,
need we tell him or her "man up, Nancy-- keep away from me" in dread of litigation ?

It does indeed appear that he perished from errors of medication.
I think that 's the way his father-in-law went out.

1 Reply

I gotta say: everything considered, from his being driven with the lash
as a slave in his early childhood, to the travails of his adulthood, MJ 's life
was sad. He was not in his right mind most of the time, or all the time.
If the suspicions of unspecified homosexual abuses were correct,
that resulted from his brain being wired up in a distorted fashion.

Everything considered, even with his adulation and being a billionaire,
it seems to me that his life was sad.

If he coud have foreseen his destiny while he was a baby:
I wonder whether he 'd have wanted to live that life or prefer Sudden Infant Crib-Death.

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

"He said he sacrificed his childhood with "a lot of hard work," and that he remembers "giving up your life for the medium."

But he'd do it all again.

"I think I would," he said. "It is very much worth it. I have always loved show business and have always enjoyed making people happy through that medium. I love the celebration of music and dance and art. I just love it."

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/SummerConcert/story?id=5680705&page=1

1 Reply

@blueflame1,

blueflame1 wrote:

"He said he sacrificed his childhood with "a lot of hard work,"
and that he remembers "giving up your life for the medium."

But he'd do it all again.

"I think I would," he said. "It is very much worth it.
I have always loved show business and have always enjoyed
making people happy through that medium. I love the celebration
of music and dance and art. I just love it."

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/SummerConcert/story?id=5680705&page=1

Thank u, Blueflame; that is very much to the point.
Chances are his father did not hit him too hard with the whip.
I doubt that MJ actually harmed anyone (as your link indicated).
I 'm glad that he enjoyed his life.

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

The tribute at the Staple's Center said it all -- leave the branding and labeling to the conspiracy theorist and celebrate what he contributed to society. It got me to order his History DVD's (I haven't bought an MJ album since "Thriller") and I know a good percentage of that profit will go to his charities, which is written into the trust. I think all that debt will get paid off by the revenue brought about by his death -- what is suppose to happen when a famous artist dies. I consider the pop musical arts have a substantially valid place in our culture even if I generally prefer classical and jazz.

He had no more of a vanity fetish than exist in many people in society, especially when one is rich, they can have their face stretched, pulled, and carved on and it becomes a drug to them -- an addiction. I never blame anybody for OCD these days -- it might irritate me and I think, "Why are they doing that?", but the mind is a complex combination of electro-chemical processes and doctors, especially GP's, push too many combinations of drugs to supposedly "help." I want to scream at them, "You're aware the patients are OCD and you're pushing mostly opium derived, closely regulated drugs?" Of course, they get addicted, dummy.

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@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

It is possible
that he did indeed sodomize the boys who associated with him.
Unless u actually see him do it or he confesses, u just don 't know for sure.
Being crazy and being a juvenile sodomite are not necessarily the same thing.

Do you mean a sodomizer of juveniles-or a juvenile who sodomizes?
But yes - whichever you mean- being crazy and being a sodomizer are not the same thing, although neither should be ignored or condoned and both conditions should have been recognized and/or treated for his sake and for the sake of all the other people with whom he came in contact - most especially his three children.

Quote:

How shoud we define "getting too close" to children ?
Is it limited to keeping them out of our beds ?
If any of us has a juvenile guest who is freightened in a thunderstorm,
need we tell him or her "man up, Nancy-- keep away from me" in dread of litigation ?

I think the problem arises when you admit that you invite them over to your house for the sole purpose of sleeping in your bed- without the benefit of conveniently occurring thunderstorms that scare little children.
Just think of how scary it'd be for a little child to be sleeping in a bed with an adult and for that adult then to want to be 'close' to them- when they have no idea what that even means yet David...

Quote:

It does indeed appear that he perished from errors of medication.
I think that 's the way his father-in-law went out.

He perished because he was fucked up...big time. And we, or the members of our society who revere celebrity and okay, talent, and who continue to excuse and condone maladaptive and dangerous behavior in celebrities, that we would NEVER excuse in anyone else, contributed to his demise.

You know what - when a person does something they know is wrong, despite how they rationalize it at the time they do it- admission of that and then some sort of change or balancing of the scales (to make the situation right- and I don't mean paying someone off) can be healing.
That's why in AA or NA (narcotics anonymous), for instance, they have people take an inventory of what they may have done while they were drunk or stoned and admit to it, and then try to reconcile with those they may have harmed, as a part of their treatment.

Why do you think so many celebrities continue to NEED self-medicating? I think it's because they are never held accountable by anyone else for their behavior that they know or feel is wrong, and they don't know how to be held accountable or hold themselves accountable and so they escape with self-medication.
And then sometimes it kills them.

1 Reply

@aidan,

David wrote:

Quote:

It is possible
that he did indeed sodomize the boys who associated with him.
Unless u actually see him do it or he confesses, u just don 't know for sure.
Being crazy and being a juvenile sodomite are not necessarily the same thing.

aidan wrote:

Quote:

Do you mean a sodomizer of juveniles-or a juvenile who sodomizes?

I have no way of knowing whether MJ practiced sodomy during his childhood or not,
but the logic of my reasoning applies to either, regardless of age.

aidan wrote:

Quote:

But yes - whichever you mean- being crazy and being a sodomizer are not the same thing

Indeed, too many sad souls have attempted to castrate themselves
before thay found their way into mental hospitals. This shows that thay are crazy,
but counterindicates a desire to sodomize children.

aidan wrote:

Quote:

although neither should be ignored or condoned and both conditions
should have been recognized and/or treated for his sake and for the sake
of all the other people with whom he came in contact - most especially his three children.

Well, as far as condoning insanity is concerned,
I have it upon the authority of a friend of mine, who is a fairly well known psychiatrist, that:
"David, anyone who u don 't think is crazy is just someone who u don 't know well enuf"

David wrote:

Quote:

How shoud we define "getting too close" to children ?
Is it limited to keeping them out of our beds ?
If any of us has a juvenile guest who is freightened in a thunderstorm,
need we tell him or her "man up, Nancy-- keep away from me" in dread of litigation ?

aidan wrote:

Quote:

I think the problem arises when you admit that you invite them over to your house
for the sole purpose of sleeping in your bed- without the benefit of conveniently
occurring thunderstorms that scare little children.

In fairness to MJ, he did not admit THAT.
Thay attended his estate to enjoy his amusement park.
I think he also had a zoo. No one alleges that thay went there
for the expressed purpose of sleeping with him.

aidan wrote:

Quote:

Just think of how scary it'd be for a little child to be sleeping in a bed with an adult
and for that adult then to want to be 'close' to them- when they
have no idea what that even means yet David...

Yeah; at that age, I had my confidence in a Model 36 Smith & Wesson .38 revolver, within arm 's reach from my bed.
Thay are more trustworthy than adults, or anyone else.

David wrote:

Quote:

It does indeed appear that he perished from errors of medication.
I think that 's the way his father-in-law went out.

aidan wrote:

Quote:

He perished because he was fucked up...big time.

According to Blueflame 's link, the stress of the 1993 molestation allegations
(whose accuser has since repudiated, confessed to lying and attributed the fraud
to his father's coercion, in an effort to escape poverty) stressed MJ so badly
that he became addicted to pain relieving medication.
MJ was smeared in the press as a degenerate, when he was the victim. Its kinda pathetic.
I 've never been a fan of his music nor dancing, but its a basic question of fairness to anyone.

aidan wrote:

Quote:

And we, or the members of our society who revere celebrity and okay, talent,
and who continue to excuse and condone maladaptive and dangerous behavior
in celebrities, that we would NEVER excuse in anyone else,
contributed to his demise.

I guess that lets ME out, since I did not revere him, nor did I oppose him.
I have been neutral about him and I did not contribute to his demise.
He did not consult me. I did not regard him differently because of his fame.
In an environment of freedom sometimes people do dangerous things.

aidan wrote:

Quote:

You know what - when a person does something they know is wrong,
despite how they rationalize it at the time they do it- admission
of that and then some sort of change or balancing of the scales
(to make the situation right- and I don't mean paying someone off) can be healing.

Possibly, that can be cathartic.
I must observe that the usual way of making amends is monetary.
That 's how civil litigation is almost always resolved.
Ofen at first, any financial settlement is emotionally
and adamantly rejected, but that 's not how it ends up.
In my experience, only about 5% of civil cases go thru to judgment.

aidan wrote:

Quote:

That's why in AA or NA (narcotics anonymous), for instance,
they have people take an inventory of what they may have done
while they were drunk or stoned and admit to it, and then try
to reconcile with those they may have harmed, as a part of their treatment.

Why do you think so many celebrities continue to NEED self-medicating?

I think its the addictive after-effects of recreational drug use.

aidan wrote:

Quote:

I think it's because they are never held accountable by anyone else
for their behavior that they know or feel is wrong, and they don't
know how to be held accountable or hold themselves accountable
and so they escape with self-medication.
And then sometimes it kills them.

In my opinion, the behavior for which MJ was held accountable
was becoming wealthy. It is possible that he sodomized 1000s
of children, but not the 2 criminals who accused him,
the first of whom admits his lies
and as to the second of whom MJ was acquitted, after the jury
heard the testimony including cross-examination.
MJ cannot prove a negative.

Long before him, many people have liked to believe accusations
of guilt about anything, but especially any crimes involving sex
and more especially so if children are involved. From such accusations,
no one is immune, and after any such accusation,
no one can get all of the tar off him, even if he is acquitted.

1 Reply

please let this guy die.

3 Replies

@Bi-Polar Bear,

Right, Bear, it comes to the point where enough is enough and that was the underlining message in the memorial at Staples.

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@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

Indeed, too many sad souls have attempted to castrate themselves
before thay found their way into mental hospitals. This shows that thay are crazy,
but counterindicates a desire to sodomize children.

There's a very good (I thought) and interesting movie in which a character does this. It's called, 'Little Children'. You should watch it- not you in particular for any reason- but I think it's a good movie for everyone to watch, (once they're an adult). There are a lot of interesting themes and it's very well acted and directed.
Anyway - it made me think about both sides of this particular issue.

Quote:

Well, as far as condoning insanity is concerned,
I have it upon the authority of a friend of mine, who is a fairly well known psychiatrist, that:
"David, anyone who u don 't think is crazy is just someone who u don 't know well enuf"

Well, given what he does everyday and who he spends his time with, his perception would be slightly skewed, don't you think Laughing

, although I understand the underlying sentiment behind his statement.
Yeah, all of us are probably a little crazy in some way, it's just that most of us have learned how to act as if we're always sane.

Quote:

In fairness to MJ, he did not admit THAT.
Thay attended his estate to enjoy his amusement park.
I think he also had a zoo. No one alleges that thay went there
for the expressed purpose of sleeping with him.

Well, in fairness to MJ, I'll admit that at this point, I can't remember his exact words, but I have a very vivid memory of watching an interview on tv, and at the beginning of the interview, I was thinking, 'Okay- he'll explain all this', because I wanted him to be able to, because I liked him - I had a Michael Jackson poster on my wall when I was a girl , and I continued to enjoy his music into my twenties and probably early thirties...I can remember hearing Billie Jean for the first time and thinking, 'Wow! This is Michael Jackson?!
So I wanted him to explain it sufficiently to get everyone off his back and then he sat there and said something along the lines of, 'Yes, I enjoy sleeping with young children and I don't see anything wrong with that.' I was stunned.

Because there is something wrong with that. David - I didn't even let my own son sleep in my bed with me beyond a certain age- to insure that he'd not be confused about all the issues that arise when a child is finding his/her own sexual path.
It wasn't very mature or sensitive to the age-appropriate needs of these children for Michael Jackson to do even what I heard him admit that he did.
I never said he committed a crime - but for someone who claimed to love children- he didn't act very responsibly toward some - by his own admission.
And I do believe he should have known better and I held and continue to hold him accountable.
My opinion toward him and what he said he did hasn't changed a bit just because he's died. Those kids are probably still alive and dealing with the aftermath.

Quote:

Yeah; at that age, I had my confidence in a Model 36 Smith & Wesson .38 revolver, within arm 's reach from my bed.Thay are more trustworthy than adults, or anyone else.

Have you ever asked your psychiatrist friend how he would interpret this? Laughing

(just kidding).
But it brings up a relevant issue about adults, the role they play in a child's life and how that will effect his or her sense of trust in anything for the rest of that child's life.
You know it's like how you're appalled at how Joseph Jackson whipped Michael. And then Michael grows up to prefer the company of children to his peers. Why do you think that is? Maybe it's because he felt he never had any control over his own life, and children are easier to control- in whatever way - I think that's why a lot of people become teachers to be honest Laughing

- I've seen it with my own eyes.
The point I'm making though is that pathology leads to pathology and I hold Michael accountable for inflicting what might be pathology on another generation of children, even if only through his confusion and selfishness and not through criminal acts.
So I won't stand and worship at his grave, or excuse him for something I wouldn't excuse anyone else for- especially when I saw him sit there and say, 'I wanted to do it and I don't see anything wrong with it.'

Quote:

MJ was smeared in the press as a degenerate, when he was the victim. Its kinda pathetic.
I 've never been a fan of his music nor dancing, but its a basic question of fairness to anyone

I think it's far more complicated than that:
you said:

Quote:

In an environment of freedom sometimes people do dangerous things.

Yes, and they come back to bite you.

Quote:

Possibly, that can be cathartic.
I must observe that the usual way of making amends is monetary.
That 's how civil litigation is almost always resolved.
Ofen at first, any financial settlement is emotionally
and adamantly rejected, but that 's not how it ends up.
In my experience, only about 5% of civil cases go thru to judgment.

Yeah, and that's the point at which I can't understand the parents of these children - even the ones he just slept in the bed with. As a mom - I'd sell anything - almost my soul- before I'd sell my child's sense of worth and trust and confidence in who they are and who they can trust, etc.
Once that's gone David - it's gone- and it affects these people for the rest of their lives. I've seen it in people who have been abused or even just reared in such a way that they are confused.

Quote:

In my opinion, the behavior for which MJ was held accountable
was becoming wealthy.

I respectfully disagree. There are many, many wealthy people in the world toward whom none of these sort of allegations have ever been directed. MJ brought a lot of this on himself. And that's just the truth.

I did not WANT him to be guilty - I agree with you that no one really knows what he is or isn't guilty of. But one thing I do believe is that he shouldn't have been allowed to be around children.
And it'll be interesting to see how his own kids handle their lives. Look at the video of Michael holding his son over the balcony of the hotel in Tokyo - or wherever it was. That man was not in control of his faculties or behavior - he was giggling like an idiot while he endangered his child and I don't care if it was because he was on drugs, or crazy- whatever - that child should have been removed for his physical and emotional safety and if anyone else had done that - that child would have been. That's the part that upsets me about this whole thing.

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Michael Jackson's Life: What No One Wants To Discuss

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