Racial classifications, should they be eliminated?

I hear ya, I hate hateful people. I also dislike people who hate and redundancy.

After reading all of the posts, I find few that relate to fact. I will repeat.

l. The IQ of African-Americans is at least 15 %( one standard deviation) below that of Caucasians in the USA.

Source- The Bell Curve

2. The Afro-American SAT scores in 1994 showed that only 148 Afro-Americans in the United States scored above 700 on the verbal section of the SAT- More than 100,000 blacks took the test.

3. 1,800 Asians scored over 700 on the verbal section of the SAT. Fewer than 80,000 Asians took the test.

Source- "The End of Racism


Does this mean that Afro-Americans are inherently inferior and cannot produce genius?
Of Course not. The existence of genius among many of the African-American populace puts the lie to that statement.

Then, what is the problem.

Some, including many Afro-Americans have suggested that the Afro-American ghetto culture may play an important part in limiting Black achievement. Many have written about the unfortunate propensity of Black youth to equate study with "a white thing."


Only people who are utterly Utopian, in my opinion, would even begin to consider that there is racism in an activity that does not have its SHARE of Afro-Americans.(HERE I INVITE ANYONE WHO WISHES TO DO SO TO ENLIGHTEN ME---Thomas Sowell has written that nowhere in the world, regardless of the presence or absence of particular forms of discrimination, do the assumptions of proportional representation hold true. All multiethnic societies exhibit a tendency for groups to engage in different occupations, have different levels and often types of education, receive different incomes and occupy a different place in the social hierarchy.


Anyone who doubts that last statement should go to the literature on Law Schools to try to determine what percentage of Law Students at Harvard or Yale are Jewish.

I think that a Utopian who is aiming at the impossible ideal of proportional representation would conclude that the Jewish students are highly oversubcribed in those two law schools.

The above are facts. I invite anyone to show that they are not. The posts preceding are interesting but just rhetoric.

EDITED to admit I posted this before I read the whole thread, so it's all out of order... It's still what I think, tho.

And what happens when we find out that all of the individuals judged competent to be, say, car salesmen just happen to be white men? Imagine a society where all the competent car salesmen were nonwhite women -- can you? By assuming that approximately the same proportion of different genders and racial groups is up to the task of fleecing the car-buying public (sorry, wrong hobbyhorse) IF YOU HAVE DATA you can decide whether the selection process is, indeed, judging people on their own merits, rather than their particular shade of beige...

If you don't have data you have no recourse but to believe that only the racial group already hired has the ability to sell cars... sounds like the bad old days to me...

Bigot- A person who is UTTERLY intolerant of ANY creed, belief or opinion that differs from his own.
It is amazing to me how some seem to disregard the true definition of words.

Note the Adverbial UTTERLY and the Adjective ANY

italgato,

What do your "facts" have to do with the topic?

The topic is about the proposed prohibition of such statistics. I missed the argument toward that proposition in the post that you claim puts all others to shame.

Well, Wy, then we try to construct a method to allow only the best to become car salesmen- A meritocracy which overlooks race, sex, religion, etc.

What we do then, Wy, is to ask people to apply based on

A. recommendations

B. Tests? ( possibly for car salesmen)

C. Interviews

D. history of proven success in the business.

However, Wy, some find that there are areas in which it would appear that the damn old bugaboo- ability is the most imporatant criterion.

Why, despite what some critics say, Afro-Americans for a whole variety of reasons make up the majority of Professional Basketball players and Football players.

Why?

You tell me, Wy.

I tell you it is talent- Talent in speed, mobility, strength, reflexes.

Now, Wy, what is the reason that Afro-Americans need to have a boost up into Law Schools like Harvard or Yale?

I'll tell you what some say. Some say that it is because the establishment has set up useless, supposedly meritocratic hurdles like GPA's and LSAT scores.

You see, Wy, you can time the forty yard dash but you cannot get an idea of the brilliance of a person by examining his GPA's and his test scores.

If you really want to find out what actually happens in the best Universities of our land, Wy, get the lists of the PhiBetaKappas from the colleges. Note how many Afro-Americans make the Phi Beta Kappa list.

You will find that fewer Afro-Americans, percentage wise, make the Phit Beta Kappa lists in the top schools than Caucausian players, percentage wise, make the rosters of Professional Basketball and Football teams.

It's called Meritocracy, Wy.

Italgato,

You go to great lengths to tout black people's academic inadequacy and have named a "ghetto" culture as the culprit.

I wonder if you think that efforts to include more blacks in academia are helpful. After all, if you claim blacks shun academia you think this is something that should change, right?

Yes, racial classification should be eliminated because the only way to choose people for jobs and school slots should be meritocracy.

If you can pass the test. Run the forty yard dash. Ace the SAT. Score above 700 in the SAT math section. Throw the ball in a direct line from the outfield to the plate. Rack up all A's in High School and College and run a 100 year dash in 10 seconds. you will be selected.

Race should have nothing to do with it.

Now, if someone tells me that taking racial classifications out of the equation would lead to job sites or schools where there is a preponderance of Caucasians or Afro-Americans or Latinos, I think the government should challenge such occurences and ask for the criteria used to place persons in positions or schools.

But Quotas are anathema and should be.

Indeed, one of our most liberal Supreme Court Justices, Justice Powell, balked at the idea of Racial Quotas. If Quotas are not the objective, why the need for Racial Classifications?

Do you think that the collection of data about race should be made illegal?

What would you tout when you say blacks shun education if that were prohibited?

Wondering when you'll address the topic.

Yes, Mr. DeKere I would like nothing more than to see the students in the inner cities and rural areas of the USA who are Afro-American, Latino and Caucasian turn their attention to studies.

Most of them do not. Most of them are entirely taken up in the Sports, hip-hop culture that stems from the ghetto.

The Afro-Americans and Latinos and Caucasians would do well to emulate the Asian Culture.

In that culture, Education is a primary value.

However, all of us know that most of the inner city and rural youth do not aspire to higher education.

Why? It is my opinion that the liberal culture which advises everyone to do their thing, let it all hang out, don't you dare to tell me what to do, Don't lay your morality on me, is the major factor causing the problem.

If one reads of New York's slums in the 1930's--depression days- bitter poverty-one finds that thousands of Jewish, Irish and Italian Children from that era made it up the ladder.

Why?

There was usually a culture which enshrined education.

One of the finest examples of the problem was illustrated in the Movie- Finding Forrester.

In this film, the young hero- a brilliant Afro-American who lived in the ghetto who was a superb writer and who read and understood very difficult literature HID HIS LIGHT UNDER A BUSHEL SO THAT HIS BASKETBALL PLAYING BUDDIES WOULD NOT LAY IT ON HIM FOR TRYING TO BE WHITE.

Luckily, the brilliant young man was saved. His TEST SCORE showed that he was brilliant and he was transferred to a private school( all tuition paid) which while not an ideal place, allowed him to spread his educational wings.

That is what is necessary- Not quotas or fake cries of "we need more money"
I can clearly show that money is not the solution.

The ECIA funds to the inner city schools were started in 1968--1968-1968. That means that Billions- Yes Billions of dollars were shoveled to the inner city schools( on the basis of poverty) to improve the student achievement.

What do we have thirty five years later?

No improvement- none- nada.

And the bleeding hearts continue to cry- More money will solve the problem.

More money is not the answer- The answer is largely cultural.

Why has Colin Powell been so successful?

His group< Jamaican Blacks, stem from a culture which did not denigrate learning but rather embraced it.

The problem is cultural. I would advise Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton to discard the race cards and to get some workshops going.

Afro-Americans can learn from Asians.

Italgato, you have spoken at length about blacks. I have a fair understanding of your opinion.

But what have you to say about this topic? You do note that proposition 54 was not about quotas.

Dear Mr. De Kere: I think I know enough about the Supreme Court decisions; Affirmative Action and the enormous burden placed on Americans by "reverse discrimination" to assure you that the Racial Classifications lead inexorably to Quotas.

Do you need more information? I'll be happy to supply it.

Away with Racial Classifications. The only fair and honest way to judge people is by Merit and merit alone.

Anyone who denies that is a person who has absolutely no confidence in himself and in the essential fairness of American Citizens with regard to people who show they are qualified.

how about a fun game of eugenics?

while i realize somewhere in my heart Italgato is omniscient about these things I found it interesting listening tonight to the Noble prize winner in Chemisty explain that he dropped out of high school with a D average. Merit and merit alone should have kept him out of college, let alone med school.

True, dyslexia, but there is always a chance for change. My dad nearly dropped out of high school, and got accepted to MIT based on a test he took, and he was white, he wasn't accepted because of a quota or because of Affirmative Action. He is also not to shabby at his career. I don't think how well you perform in high school says much about how well you will perform later in life, despite the weight that colleges give it.

rufio thats exactly my point

Yes yes, but like I said... what is your position on the data? You appear to like facts and figures, how did you feel about the proposal to take them away from you.

Sure and the nonsense continues. A man was accepted at MIT after taking a test. He did not go to college. And Rocky won the championship after being a club fighter. And John Jones became a CEO although he was declared to have a 75 IQ in school.

Look over the resumes of the successful. They are all hard workers who usually went to college and received degrees from Law Schools, Medical Schools, and Masters in Business Schools.

Did I ever tell you the story about Horatio Alger?

Hi rufio, WELCOME to A2K. I never had the potential to attend MIT, but with my bare-bones graduation from high school, I managed to earn a college degree after my four year stint in the US Air Force, and followed it with a very satisfying career in accounting - most of it in the management ranks. When I took the ACT in college, I did pretty good on the test, but not great. Even some of us average folks end up doing pretty good.

Mr. DeKere: No one is taking anything away from me. I don't live in California. How do I feel about Racial Classifications. You must forgive me for not making myself clear. I will try.

l. Racial Classifications are anathema. They lead to Quotas.

2. I am sorry that the proposal did not pass.


It would appear that more people disliked the fact that Racial Classifications would not be used than those who felt they should be discarded. That is Democracy and in the absence of any judicial intervention( which is most unlikely) should be accepted by all in California as the proper procedure.

However, It is my opinion that the abandonment of Meritocracy and the use of Racial Classifications to construct a Utopia where, in its final stages may lead to the improbable situation of having 10 or 20 Asian basketball players who stand under 5 feet 10 inches play on Professional Basketball teams in California. Isnt that what Racial Classifications are for? To distribute goodies based on race instead of Merit?????