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Racial classifications, should they be eliminated?

 
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 03:16 am
Joining the KKK is also a way to "broaden your background". Seems not all broadening is created equal.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 07:57 am
Italgato wrote:
Mr. Hinteler: Please don't be petty.

Pot, kettle, black....

italgato wrote:
I do not think you know a great deal about books on Race if you do not instantly recognize the books I listed.

Does anyone recall a certain conversation a few days ago when someone swore they had changed their ways? Rolling Eyes

italgato wrote:
Do some reading in those books, sir, It will help you get a grip on events in the racial area.

And you wonder why people say you are snide?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 08:04 am
Hobitbob
Why bother. A leopard cannot change it's spots.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 08:29 am
au1929 wrote:
Hobitbob
Why bother. A leopard cannot change it's spots.

Or lose its taste for sexagenarian magician entrees, it seems! Wink
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 08:35 am
Proposition 54:Results
Collecting Racial Data
updated: 9:46 a.m.
No 4,684,977 64%
  Yes 2,615,133 36%
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 08:39 am
Yes!!! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 09:39 am
Ricardo_Tizon wrote:
I believe another good reason to eliminate race classification is that it is very hard for people with mixed ancestry. If your father is Causasian and your mother is Black does this makes you gray. What about the Chinese which is Yellow mixed with a Filipino Brown. Does this make your race **** color?


The last US Census included the option to claim a variety of mixed ancestries for the specific reason of that dilemma, didnt it?

If you want, you can find ways to go around such problems and the last US Census would prove that, I think, on this count. The problem you mention is actually relatively easy to solve by adding such mixed categories. If you want it to be better / more precise / etc, it should be improved rather than done away with.

On another thread I argued against "political correctness", in the sense that "political correctness" often has people avoiding calling things by their name. Typical example I used then, was the case where a professor had written a book about the use of the word "nigger" through history, and the book was banned from use in schools. Banned because one shouldn't say "nigger". But thats taking things the wrong way around. You shouldnt use the word "nigger", because its use connotates entrenched racism - its the racism that is offensive. But how can you battle racism if you cant call its uses by their name?

Same here. We want people to be equal and to be treated equal. But as it stands, people are not treated equally. Race is still a factor in people being treated inequally. Even most opponents of AA dont dispute this, they merely contend that this is "less and less so". So what do we do? Find out where the problem is, where racial inequality does appear, and do something about it? Or do we do it the other way around, and start out by banning talk of racial inequality, because it shouldnt exist?

If you want to find out where racial inequality still exists, if you want to discuss and tackle racial inequality, you need data. The alternative is just Orwellian newspeak: if we just act like it isnt there and forbid recording, registering and naming it, it wont really be there anymore. This is an inclination the politically correct leftists and the rightists proposing the sorts of this Proposition have in common. But thats kinda like a little child, who believes that if he puts his hand in front of his eyes and he cant see you, then you wont be able to see him either. The fact is, just cause you wont record existing racial inequalities anymore, wont make them go away - they'll just be all the harder to tackle.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 10:02 am
Nimh,

You make interesting points. However it isn't just a question of collecting data. If we were to allow 'mixed' racial categories for self identification (as is the case with the census) in other areas we won't get accurate data precisely because there are consequences to the classification. If the owner of a small company has some (however small) component of ancestry in a protected minority group he stands to gain very significant advantage in winning contracts with Federal, Stater, or local governments by labelling him (or her) self as a member of the protected category. A similar situation prevails with respect to a candidate for admission to a university or graduate school.

There is little doubt that so-called affirmative action programs to provide the preferential access of minority people to the social and economic benefits of the society were necessary to break old patterns of discrimination. There is also little doubt that such programs have been effective in accomplishing their intended purpose. I believe the salient question now is whether or not we have yet reached the point at which the adverse side effects of such programs (and the racial classifications on which they are based, and which sustain them) outweigh the primary benefits. I believe we are very near that point now in the United States. For that reason I believe they and the classifications that go with them should soon be abolished.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 11:13 am
nimh wrote:
Same here. We want people to be equal and to be treated equal. But as it stands, people are not treated equally. Race is still a factor in people being treated inequally. Even most opponents of AA dont dispute this, they merely contend that this is "less and less so". So what do we do? Find out where the problem is, where racial inequality does appear, and do something about it? Or do we do it the other way around, and start out by banning talk of racial inequality, because it shouldnt exist?

If you want to find out where racial inequality still exists, if you want to discuss and tackle racial inequality, you need data. The alternative is just Orwellian newspeak: if we just act like it isnt there and forbid recording, registering and naming it, it wont really be there anymore. This is an inclination the politically correct leftists and the rightists proposing the sorts of this Proposition have in common. But thats kinda like a little child, who believes that if he puts his hand in front of his eyes and he cant see you, then you wont be able to see him either. The fact is, just cause you wont record existing racial inequalities anymore, wont make them go away - they'll just be all the harder to tackle.


To a large extent I agree with what you are saying here nimh but the collection IS a double edged sword.

There is more to the issue than just pretending inequality it isn't there. Once the data is in hand it's used by all sides of the equation. Some will use the data to show inequality exists, others will use the data to create/continue inequities. Eliminating the collection of the data eliminates BOTH of those possibilities.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 11:18 am
Data doesn't create inequities, people do. And it's illegal and the inequity you reference (admission quota based on race alone) has already been shot down.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 11:21 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
Data doesn't create inequities, people do. And it's illegal and the inequity you reference (admission quota based on race alone) has already been shot down.


??? Whom are you directing this at Craven? I don't see where anyone has mentioned anything about admission quotas base don race alone....
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 11:26 am
fishin' wrote:
My understanding is that the group that proposed "Prop 54" was pushing to eliminate race from being used as a factor in awarding scholarships and college grants.


Then you said the data is used to further inequity. I took it to mean you were referencing the above.

Could you explain what you mean when you say that data sorted by race furthers inequity?
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 11:46 am
Scholarships and grants are different beasts from admissions...

But, what I meant was that people can take the raw data and make a case to argue any side of the coin they want to. In many cases we've gotten to the point where people look at things like census data and if any institution's membership doesn't match the census demographics then there is an automatic presumption of inequality - even where no inequity can be proven by any other means and in some cases, has been proven not to exist by other means.

Just because an institution has 30% minority representation it doesn't mean that they don't discriminate. And just because an institution only has 5% minority representation it doesn't mean that they do.

There will never be a colorblind society as long as people keep sorting people by race.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 11:56 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
Data doesn't create inequities, people do. And it's illegal and the inequity you reference (admission quota based on race alone) has already been shot down.


I think the point here is;

1 People can and likely will use the data to produce inequities. And,
2. The data is itself increasingly misleading and meaningless precisely because people have a built in incentive to identify themselves with a "protected" group even when there is only a sliver of basis for it and that situation occurs now with increasing frequency.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 12:03 pm
I think a colorblind society is both an impossible and an ill-advised ideal.

That people will distort data to use in arguments is still a pretty weak argument against making the collection of the data illegal. All data is abused in that way. The existence of the data is not the problem, it's the bonehead rakehells.

That the data has inherent complexities that sometimes render it meaningless is also another weak argument against making the collection of the data illegal.

I don't like the checkboxes. I have never answered that question on any form and it's a very American absurdity.

But I dislike the prohibition of statistical data. I dislike it even more when the prohoibition is fueled by an agenda and the motive is lied about.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 12:07 pm
I think the question here is of the merits of collecting meaningless statistical data by a government that in general should not be acting on such questions. What if the government demanded data about your religion (or lack thereof) or sexual preferences to use as a basis on which to grand special access to contracts, jobs or the like?

The abstract question of the merits of collecting statistice does not really cover the ground here.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 12:14 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
I think a colorblind society is both an impossible and an ill-advised ideal.


Well, in large part I'd agree but that is exactly what the civil rights advocates have been claiming they are aiming for for the last 60+ years.

Quote:
That people will distort data to use in arguments is still a pretty weak argument against making the collection of the data illegal. All data is abused in that way. The existence of the data is not the problem, it's the bonehead rakehells.


True. Let's kill all the boneheads! Wink
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 12:28 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
I think the question here is of the merits of collecting meaningless statistical data by a government that in general should not be acting on such questions.


I think lots of things have little to no merit. But I differentiate between my opinion of it not having merit and the desire to make it illegal.

Quote:
What if the government demanded data about your religion (or lack thereof) or sexual preferences to use as a basis on which to grand special access to contracts, jobs or the like?


What if the government forced me to eat rotten cheese? The government does not demand any race data. You are constructing a straw man.

Quote:
The abstract question of the merits of collecting statistice does not really cover the ground here.


You are right. This is why I have never lauded the merits of collecting data as an argument. My arguments have centered on the absurdity of making data illegal. Even if the data is flawed it's no justification of making the data illegal.

As I said, there is a big difference between a position that states that data is meritless and the position that states that the existence of the data should be illegal.

fishin' wrote:
Well, in large part I'd agree but that is exactly what the civil rights advocates have been claiming they are aiming for for the last 60+ years.


Ostensibly only. Their desire for equality sometimes corrupts itself into a campaign for breaks. And by getting undue breaks they have condradicted the ideal of equality.

Quote:
True. Let's kill all the boneheads! Wink


Hell yeah! I hate extremists. I think they should all be decapitated and their entrails stretched across the city.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 12:30 pm
fishin' wrote:
Well, in large part I'd agree but that is exactly what the civil rights advocates have been claiming they are aiming for for the last 60+ years.


And that's why I mentioned that berated book by Dain :wink:

Quote:
Let's kill all the boneheads!


Although I belong to a "race", which is -according to Bush- (now) known for strong pacifism, I agree more than in large with that Laughing
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 12:50 pm
my favorite logic
I hate bigots... Very Happy
0 Replies
 
 

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