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SOCIALISM FOR AMERICA....ITS TIME!!!

Forums: Politics, Socialism
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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 12:41 pm
@JPB,
Don't forget the long history of Guilds, and the more recent history of C0-ops....History shows lots of success for collectivist organization.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 12:45 pm
@hawkeye10,
again -- small enclaves of like-minded individuals.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 12:51 pm
@JPB,
Quote:
again -- small enclaves of like-minded individuals.

not always small, and certainly not like minded. There is however always a cause with a strong enough pull to convince individuals that the differences can not be allowed to split up the collective. I argue that at this point in time, as circumstances continue to worsen, as the threats to human survival continue to mount, that the existence of the human race is a cause that will be found to be worthy. If we don't rally around socialism before the next round of nuclear weapon caused destruction (which experts say is highly likely during the next 20 years), then we will certainly come to socialism after.

0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 12:52 pm
@Amigo,
Amigo wrote:

SOCIALISM..........U.S. Postal System, Works Great, no problem.

CAPITALISM.........Medical industry, Works like ****, everybody sick and going broke from medical bills, a few get rich.


I just saw this as I scrolled through. You may have Great working postal service where you live but it sucks here.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 01:03 pm
Apparently, I need more guns.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 04:16 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
Oh, I get it is some kind of sin to understand Finn for seconds at a time.


Hardly a sin, more like an epiphany
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 04:18 pm
@Amigo,
Quote:
The government is not left wing or right wing. Government is ultimatly and by its nature totalitarian.


And there is no government in a socialist society?

You're making the case against socialism.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 04:53 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

You enjoy railing against Socialism quite a bit, don'tcha?

Cycloptichorn


I havent been "railing" at all -- that appears to be your shtick. Indeed, apart from a little bemused irony, I didn't say a single negative thing about Socialism.

With respect to the stuff about the "creation of Socialist man" and "the elimination of the irreconcilables" and, of course the "withering away" of the state, I was quoting those great humanists, V.I. Lenin and J.V. Stalin.

Ignorance and credulity are a dangerous combination.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 05:04 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

You enjoy railing against Socialism quite a bit, don'tcha?

Cycloptichorn


I havent been "railing" at all -- that appears to be your shtick. Indeed, apart from a little bemused irony, I didn't say a single negative thing about Socialism.

With respect to the stuff about the "creation of Socialist man" and "the elimination of the irreconcilables" and, of course the "withering away" of the state, I was quoting those great humanists, V.I. Lenin and J.V. Stalin.

Ignorance and credulity are a dangerous combination.


Yeah, I know you were quoting them. Just think it's funny, is all.

As for myself, I hardly if ever rail against socialism Smile

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 05:32 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Yeah, I know you were quoting them. Just think it's funny, is all.


Me too !

Cycloptichorn wrote:

As for myself, I hardly if ever rail against socialism Smile
Cycloptichorn


True enough ! You save that for conservatives and republicans.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 05:51 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
True enough ! You save that for conservatives and republicans.


Mostly just their actions when elected to govern. There's nothing inherently wrong with Conservatism, and most Conservatives I've met are perfectly decent people.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 07:30 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Oh, I see. All we have to do is reform humanity and alter human behavior !


No, I would argue that the moderns willingness to personally profit at the expense of the collective is an aberration from normal human behaviour, that capitalism has skewed human behaviour in a very negative way. Socialism would be a return to normal.


Where did you learn about human nature? All the wars of the past few millenia were fought for land, glory, increased population, resources, livestock, etc., etc. This was all prior to capitalism.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 07:33 pm
We should include that the Vikings attacking the coast of Ireland and England were co-operative efforts.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 07:47 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
Where did you learn about human nature? All the wars of the past few millenia were fought for land, glory, increased population, resources, livestock, etc., etc. This was all prior to capitalism.


the clans fought among themselves, it is true. However, almost always the clan and the clan's best interests came before any individual desires. We are talking about the mindset of the individual, the willingness of the individual to give of self to the collective, not of the human need to war. They are two different subjects.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 08:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Where did you learn about human nature? All the wars of the past few millenia were fought for land, glory, increased population, resources, livestock, etc., etc. This was all prior to capitalism.


the clans fought among themselves, it is true. However, almost always the clan and the clan's best interests came before any individual desires. We are talking about the mindset of the individual, the willingness of the individual to give of self to the collective, not of the human need to war. They are two different subjects.


That clan/tribal thing has caused a lot of death in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 09:35 pm
@Amigo,
Amigo wrote:

SOCIALISM..........U.S. Postal System, Works Great, no problem.

CAPITALISM.........Medical industry, Works like ****, everybody sick and going broke from medical bills, a few get rich.





I would cringe at the thought of the postal service or similar organization running my health care. By the way, unless you are God himself, you are not going to prevent people from getting sick.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 11:49 pm
@JPB,
Quote:
Rather than selling his work to the market he's selling his time to the factory. The problem with your model is that without the capitalist there IS no factory to purchase his time.

In a modern day setting you have the small shoemaker trying to compete with Nike, or the corner drug store competing with Walgreens. I understand your concern and share it to a large extent, but I don't think you union (socialized production) model works in the long run.


So we need the capitalist?

When the capitalist show up in Nicaraguan and tell the farmer "you need the capitalist" and the Nicaraguan says "No thanks" the capitalist sends in an army to terrorize the Nicaraguans. The Nicaraguans become Sandanistas to fight the capatalist. The capitalist wins because the capitalist has the money.

What the capitalist is after from the Nicaraguan is his surplus value. How much surplus value is being extracted from people world wide by the capitalist? And is this model working for them?

We could ask them but they will never be able to tell there side of the story and there story is the story of Deathsquads, assasination, torture, starvation, sabatage of democracy, and endless war.

The model works for you (us) and for the people from your vantage point because you are living in the spoils of over half the worlds surplus value acquired by the manifestation of the greatest evils man could practice on another man.

That is a fact. I can back it up with volume after volume

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surplus_value

Surplus value is a concept created by Karl Marx in his critique of political economy, where its ultimate source is unpaid surplus labor performed by the worker for the capitalist, serving as a basis for capital accumulation.


The German equivalent word "Mehrwert" means simply value-added (an output measure of the net increase in product wealth), but in Marx's value theory, the extra or surplus-value has a specific meaning, which is not the new value added to the output of products, but rather the amount of the increase in the value of capital upon investment, i.e. the yield or increment in value, regardless of whether it takes the form of profit, interest or rent.


georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 09:28 am
Amigo,

Perhaps, from your vast store of knowledge and information, you could illuminate us with some examples of the wonderful outcomes that have been delivered by advocates of these Marxist ideas..... in the former Soviet Union, in the formerly captive nations of eastern Europe; in pre-reform China; in Nicaragua or even that socialist paradise in Cuba.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 11:52 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Amigo,

Perhaps, from your vast store of knowledge and information, you could illuminate us with some examples of the wonderful outcomes that have been delivered by advocates of these Marxist ideas..... in the former Soviet Union, in the formerly captive nations of eastern Europe; in pre-reform China; in Nicaragua or even that socialist paradise in Cuba.

And perhaps Amigo would like to compare North Korea to South Korea, and tell us how many people live in tyranny and die from starvation in which country?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 12:21 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

Amigo,

Perhaps, from your vast store of knowledge and information, you could illuminate us with some examples of the wonderful outcomes that have been delivered by advocates of these Marxist ideas..... in the former Soviet Union, in the formerly captive nations of eastern Europe; in pre-reform China; in Nicaragua or even that socialist paradise in Cuba.

And perhaps Amigo would like to compare North Korea to South Korea, and tell us how many people live in tyranny and die from starvation in which country?


Though I think that the east European countries were only 'socialistic' by name (and mainly just following the Soviet-style communism, besides perhaps Yugoslavia).
North Korea's "Juche" may be called 'Stalinism' as well in my opinion (but there's still some discussion about it).
 

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