entrapment or not

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

So let us go with this example of your and add that there was never any funds in the safe to start with and the employer had gone along with this set up of his or her employee.

Under those set of conditions I do not think that he should or could be charge with a crime.

Why not? You had the criminal intent to steal the money in the safe and you did everything possible to commit the crime. The fact that the safe was empty does not change the fact that you engaged in criminal conduct with the requisite attempt. You may not have completed the crime, but you can still be charged with an attempted theft.

This example is no different than the pick pocket scenario taught in law school and cited in many early attempt cases. If you stick your hand in someone's pocket with the intent to steal the contents, you have done everything necessary to commit the crime. But for the fortuity that the pocket was empty, the crime would be complete. Why should you go free simply because the pocket was empty?

2 Replies

@BillRM,

Many children have no one to complain to or have parents who do not care enough to warn their children or take action. I think many children could get pulled into talking to an adult (who they might think is another kid) and invite them over. It's naive to think all children would be wary and we all know from news reports that plenty of children get taken advantage of by these predators.

1 Reply

@Debra Law,

I didn't know that, Debra. It seems a thin line to me between coming up with a scheme and actually committing the crime. I assume the penalties are very different?

1 Reply

@Debra Law,

Still sound like illegal entrapment to me as without your efforts he would never had gone near that empty safe.

You as the agent of the safe owner set him up.

Could not be a clearer example of the defense of illegal entrapment as a matter of fact.

1 Reply

@Green Witch,

I think many children could get pulled into talking to an adult (who they might think is another kid) and invite them over.
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You assumptions should be enough to justifly the large scale setting up of traps on the internet that result in men with no known criminal history being lock up for five years or more and who families are also greatly harm?

Might just be nice to have a few studies to show that your assumptions have any connection to the real world first would it not?

1 Reply

@BillRM,

First, Bill, as it apparently didn't sink in with you, i don't give a rat's ass about some program on television--the subject here is the (confused almot to the incomprehensible) scenario in the first post. You're babbling on about potential harm. What is your idea of how one is to judge the potential harm? Does he have to get his hand into her panties before you'll be convinced? Your "making a game and a tee-vee show" out of it means nothing in reference to the scenario described by the author. Joe has explained what constitutes entrapment. If the individual concerned followed the first scenario which Joe outlined, it's not entrapment. And you are whining about potential of harm? If he's cruising adolescent chat rooms in the first place, that makes him suspect. If he makes an assignation with someone he believes to be an adolescent girl, the presumption of intent to commit a criminal act is very, very high.

It is certainly no fault of anyone else if he gets busted in that manner. Try to stay focused on this thread, Bill, and not some television program which you saw, and which the rest of us may not have seen--but most importantly, is not the subject of this discussion.

*********************************************

( Bill, this part is addressed to the post which succeeded yours, so don't go all postal on me.)

Hey Rapist Boy--i don't need you to peddle your lurid melodrama to me, and attempt to tell what attitudes on my part are or are not indefensible. Unless and until you can come up with a convincing argument for why Joe's first scenario constitutes an abuse of personal freedom, i don't have anything to discuss with you. Making vague statements about a return to the worst abuses of a hundred years ago without specifying what you mean (the subject of entrapment was simply not an issue in 1909) is just more of your ranting.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

My my we saw a few hundreds men with almost no criminal history of any kind being arrested and lock up for years for the benefit of a TV show and that should not matter at all?

Ok by me if that is your opinion it is not mine however.

1 Reply

@Green Witch,

Green Witch wrote:

I didn't know that, Debra. It seems a thin line to me between coming up with a scheme and actually committing the crime. I assume the penalties are very different?

Criminal laws and penalties vary from state to state. For instance, here's the statute from the State of Florida:

Quote:

777.04 Attempts, solicitation, and conspiracy.--

(1) A person who attempts to commit an offense prohibited by law and in such attempt does any act toward the commission of such offense, but fails in the perpetration or is intercepted or prevented in the execution thereof, commits the offense of criminal attempt, ranked for purposes of sentencing as provided in subsection (4). Criminal attempt includes the act of an adult who, with intent to commit an offense prohibited by law, allures, seduces, coaxes, or induces a child under the age of 12 to engage in an offense prohibited by law.

(2) A person who solicits another to commit an offense prohibited by law and in the course of such solicitation commands, encourages, hires, or requests another person to engage in specific conduct which would constitute such offense or an attempt to commit such offense commits the offense of criminal solicitation, ranked for purposes of sentencing as provided in subsection (4).

(3) A person who agrees, conspires, combines, or confederates with another person or persons to commit any offense commits the offense of criminal conspiracy, ranked for purposes of sentencing as provided in subsection (4).

(4)(a) Except as otherwise provided in ss. 104.091(2), 370.12(1), 828.125(2), 849.25(4), 893.135(5), and 921.0022, the offense of criminal attempt, criminal solicitation, or criminal conspiracy is ranked for purposes of sentencing under chapter 921 and determining incentive gain-time eligibility under chapter 944 one level below the ranking under s. 921.0022 or s. 921.0023 of the offense attempted, solicited, or conspired to. If the criminal attempt, criminal solicitation, or criminal conspiracy is of an offense ranked in level 1 or level 2 under s. 921.0022 or s. 921.0023, such offense is a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(b) If the offense attempted, solicited, or conspired to is a capital felony, the offense of criminal attempt, criminal solicitation, or criminal conspiracy is a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(c) Except as otherwise provided in s. 893.135(5), if the offense attempted, solicited, or conspired to is a life felony or a felony of the first degree, the offense of criminal attempt, criminal solicitation, or criminal conspiracy is a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(d) Except as otherwise provided in s. 104.091(2), s. 370.12(1), s. 828.125(2), or s. 849.25(4), if the offense attempted, solicited, or conspired to is a:

1. Felony of the second degree;
2. Burglary that is a felony of the third degree; or
3. Felony of the third degree ranked in level 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10 under s. 921.0022 or s. 921.0023, the offense of criminal attempt, criminal solicitation, or criminal conspiracy is a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(e) Except as otherwise provided in s. 104.091(2), s. 370.12(1), s. 849.25(4), or paragraph (d), if the offense attempted, solicited, or conspired to is a felony of the third degree, the offense of criminal attempt, criminal solicitation, or criminal conspiracy is a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(f) Except as otherwise provided in s. 104.091(2), if the offense attempted, solicited, or conspired to is a misdemeanor of the first or second degree, the offense of criminal attempt, criminal solicitation, or criminal conspiracy is a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(5) It is a defense to a charge of criminal attempt, criminal solicitation, or criminal conspiracy that, under circumstances manifesting a complete and voluntary renunciation of his or her criminal purpose, the defendant:

(a) Abandoned his or her attempt to commit the offense or otherwise prevented its commission;

(b) After soliciting another person to commit an offense, persuaded such other person not to do so or otherwise prevented commission of the offense; or

(c) After conspiring with one or more persons to commit an offense, persuaded such persons not to do so or otherwise prevented commission of the offense.

0 Replies

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Still sound like illegal entrapment to me as without your efforts he would never had gone near that empty safe.

You as the agent of the safe owner set him up.

Could not be a clearer example of the defense of illegal entrapment as a matter of fact.

You're wrong. Your co-worker is not a law enforcement officer. You are criminally liable for your own criminal conduct even if your co-worker talked you into committing the crime.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Quote:

My my we saw a few hundreds men with almost no criminal history of any kind being arrested and lock up for years for the benefit of a TV show and that should not matter at all?

"We saw?" What's this "we" ****, Bill, you got a fuckin' mouse in your pocket?

Let me run this by you again. Some goofy tee-vee program you saw is not the topic here. Given that i did not see the program, it's pretty damned stupid (and typical) of you to assume that i have any opinion at all on the witless boob toob extravaganzas which attract your notice. The subject here is the allegation of entrapment embodied in the pathetically written and thoroughly confusing opening post.

This thread got off to a bad start as it was, it certainly doesn't need you to add some ravings about a television program of which the rest of us likely know nothing.

There is a name for the fallacy you indulge when you inaccurately describe what i believe, or just flat out lie and claim i believe something which you have no reason to assume i know--and that is a straw man fallacy. Don't put your pathetic, ill-chosen and ineptly expressed words into my mouth and try to claim moral superiority because you're defending a position which i have not in fact ever discussed.

I would also point out (since you don't seem to understand it) that the lack of a prior criminal history doesn't alter whether or not a crime has been committed. If a person is convicted of a criminal offense, the lack of a prior criminal history can be offered in mitigation at the time sentence is passed. But it is meaningless in the consideration of a crime which is alleged against an individual.

0 Replies

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

You assumptions should be enough to justifly the large scale setting up of traps on the internet that result in men with no known criminal history being lock up for five years or more and who families are also greatly harm?

A law enforcement officer who merely provides you with an opportunity to commit a crime has NOT entrapped you. As an adult, BillRM, you have the choice to say "no thanks."

2 Replies

@Debra Law,

During the Vietnam war era the FBI would have it agents go into ant-war groups and take leadership roles and then talk members into taking illegal actions when before this they had dome nothing of an illegal nature.

The agents even helpfully provided the means such as dynamite to the group and for some strange reason the court found this to be illegal entrapment.

Second example that come to mind relate more to this thread in that the government kept sending this gentleman for years offers for child porn magazines due to him having a history of reading them when they was not illegal.

After five years or more of not taking these many offers up the man weaken and order one of the magazine and was then arrested and convinced.

Once more for some strange reason the higher courts throw out this case on the ground of illegal entrapment.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

During the Vietnam war era the FBI would have it agents go into ant-war groups and take leadership roles and then talk members into taking illegal actions when before this they had dome nothing of an illegal nature.

The agents even helpfully provided the means such as dynamite to the group and for some strange reason the court found this to be illegal entrapment.

Second example that come to mind relate more to this thread in that the government kept sending this gentleman for years offers for child porn magazines due to him having a history of reading them when they was not illegal.

After five years or more of not taking these many offers up the man weaken and order one of the magazine and was then arrested and convinced.

Once more for some strange reason the higher courts throw out this case on the ground of illegal entrapment.

BillRM: Apples and oranges. A defense might be both applicable and successful in one case, but not in another.

0 Replies

@Debra Law,

You're wrong. Your co-worker is not a law enforcement officer. You are criminally liable for your own criminal conduct even if your co-worker talked you into committing the crime
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Hmm not illegal entrapment due to the fact that you are an agent of the employer and not in law enforcement?

Perhaps right but if I was on the jury you would not get away with conviving that man.

0 Replies

Ah, a convivial jury . . . how nice.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Setanta did I ever point out to you that you are a real asshole when someone dare to disagree with you?

If I had not already done so please allow me to do so now.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Get a mirror, Bill--when it comes to being an asshole because people refuse to agree with your witless tirades, you have no equal.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Is it not nice that on the internet you can wipe a fool/asshole out of your universe and not get charge with murder?

Byby my freind.

1 Reply

@Debra Law,

BillRM, you have the choice to say "no thanks."
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So it make sense to you to have law enforcement create “crimes” out of thin air and lock up useful citizens as a result who are supporting themselves and their families?

We already have one percent of our adults in prison the highest in the world and you would wish to add to this burden for what gain?

True the towns where the prisons are located have a gain if we greatly increase the prisons populations but would you not think that using resources to find and lock up people who you do not need to go out of your way to convince to committed a crime is a far far better use of resources then tying up law enforcement personal role playing on a computer?

Somehow I never view one of law enforcement main duties the temptation of citizens to committed fantasy crimes.

The TV show did have good rating however.

1 Reply

@Debra Law,

Debra I just have a great idea instead of having law enforcement playing at being young children to try to find someone who they can convince to commit a fantasy crime why do we not just require all adult males to have a lie detector test done every few years to find out if they would have a good opportunely to have sex with a child whether they would consider doing so?

Bet you could greatly increase the prison population on that test!!!!!

Unless there are studies that show the men who are being catch by these police slings are in fact a real danger to real children the lie detector test make as must sense or even more then what we are doing now.

1 Reply

entrapment or not

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