entrapment or not

@aidan,

Hmm the hell with their families and their children because we do not like them is that what you are smiling at Aidan?

The hell at the cost of all kind to the rest of the society to lock them up is that what you are smiling at Aiden?

Let said there are solid studies that show that they are no more likely to be threats to real children then the rest of the population would you then care to lock them up and smile about it?

And if not why are you not with me in supporting such studies being done to see if we are dong more harm then good in the matter?

1 Reply

@aidan,

Oh by the way are you smiling about the idea of locking up young girls under the child porn laws for sending nude pictures of their own bodies to their boyfriends?

Is there any point where you will allow common sense and logic to over ride your emotions?

0 Replies

Two sides to this
- Any adult solliciting sex from a minor should be arrested. If the adult thinks he is dealing with a minor while solliciting for sex, the adult is as far as I am concerned guilty and should be send to jail.
The crime is to act on the desire, regardless if the desired result is ever obtained.
The goal of locking them up is to protect society at large, and especially minors, from a person who has shown to have no compunctions to act as a sexual predator.

But it should end there. Entrapment is a very dangerous tool, as it can lead to vigilante actions and that in turn can lead to mob behavior. And, as mentioned by someone, there are children around who are smart enough and unscrupulous enough to abuse the system in order to hurt adults they don't like.

These kind of accusations are VERY serious, as they can potentially scar a person for life. And people are more and more free about spreading these rumors around. I've seen the consequences of these actions, where a friend of mine who did volunteer work with children immediately stopped it when a rumor started to circle around. Despite the fact that he likes working with children, he has refrained from doing so since, and will probably never do so again. The accusations have hurt him a lot.

I abhor the media subjecting these individuals to public scorn and derision. I abhor that society, even after a pedophile has undergone treatment and a sentence, and is entitled yb law to have a new change, still spits those individuals out. There are (or at least were) websites where such people are singled out, with their adress listed.

If there is no way for people to believe that they can change, it might even be more HUMANE for such 'predators' to be simply be put to death, because they are convicted for life anyway, and outside of the prison walls, no one will look out for their safety.

2 Replies

My3girls has only left a single nugget and then split. This entire case, has been built upon supposition and false ppremise. David is toying with us , and, if it isnt visible to most on the board, hes managed to recast the entire case into one where entrapment seems to be a reasonable conclusion . From what I read, hes gone back to the foundation and is asking "was there even a crime commited"?

My comments have been focused solely upon getting the entire case built on stronger grounds before we start tying knots in the noose (which seems far from reality here).
The fact that there are several ongoing cases that are testing these very assumptions (including the definitions of entrapment) we should probably pay more attention to our news sources than play with a bogus situation as this.
The cases in Pa involve a hell of a lot more information and actual evidence than this one.
Im surprised that noone but Dave had been toying with us on the validity o the entire "scenario" yet few have picked up on it (Id vennture a kopek that its because we are protective parents at heart and theres no room for logic if we feel our kids threatened).

PS, HERE IS, IN ITS ENTIRETY, THE OPENING STATEMENT.

Quote:

Here is the senario- 27 year old male in chat room having conversation with female and at some point conversation turns to sex and male finds out girl is 11 and says no offense but no way. Girl comes back and makes statements about whythey can't meet as she is not a snitch and also states and I'm not a cop. She sends a picture of herself, she is really a 28 year old detective on the internet. She says she is bringing someone of age with her. male stupidly goes to meet up with them.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Given the above facts it seem hard to prove he was either looking or expecting sex with a child at a meeting that is to have another adult along with her.

I am surprise that any DA with the given facts would consider pressing charges but what the hell we are emotionally driven on this subjuct.

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@BillRM,

I was smiling at Panzade being a smart aleck. Sorry, Bill, but that struck my funny bone - not the situation - mind you- but the way he laid it out so succinctly.

No one is ruining these mens' families, but they themselves Bill. The minute they click the mouse to start talking to underage children about sex, they might as well walk downstairs and into the living room and tell their wives and children - 'I'm doing everything in my power to **** up your lives and ruin our family's happiness.'

It doesn't matter if anyone or no one ever catches them at it. What if only his wife ever finds out? Or even if she doesn't find out and he has this secret- do you think it will help their marriage?

What if only his kids know? Do you think it will enable them to respect and trust their father?

No - I'm not smiling at ruined families or lives. But you can't blame it on anyone but the person who takes the action that will end up ruining his/her family and their lives.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

I remember social situations in which this has occurred,
e.g., some of my cousins have had several children of both sexes,
whom I have known for years n decades. During their childhoods,
at family gatherings, in an ambience of relaxation, we discussed
whatever came into our minds, the same as the adults,
like what was happening in their lives, their current interests or mine.
People contributed their individual opinions qua newspaper stories
or TV shows, regardless of age. I certainly had strong opinions at all ages that I remember.
I remember my Uncle Bill repeatedly telling me not to argue.
He scoffed at me, that as a lawyer, I 'd be priceless.
I did not comply with his wishes.
I don 't think that it was anything out of the ordinary.

Over the years, I 've attended summer vacation resorts
where families r friendly and social with one another, swimming, eating, etc.
including ordinary conversation among all of us; maybe something
note worthy in the newspaper or an event in one of our lives.
When one of the children had something to say, we did not shun him
and pretend that the 1st Amendment has an age limit on it.
Just talk nicely.

Those situations are not even remotely similar to this David. I never shun kids either, whether I know them or not.
A normal person would say to a young girl who approached him or her in this way, 'Excuse me young lady, but do your parents know you are suggesting meetings with strangers? This is not a safe thing to do and I'd advise you to stop doing this right now and never do it again.'

They would NEVER arrange a meeting with that child.

Quote:

In this case, we were informed that the 11 year old girl
said that she was bringing along an adult, who presumably woud not
countenance felonies committed against her in front of him,

Any adult who agreed to chaperone this meeting has something wrong with him or her. WHY? Why would you encourage a child to befriend a strange man that she's only talked to over the internet?
It's ludicrous. And dangerous. Any adult who would advise the child to continue this or other attempts at frienship with other adults over the internet is guilty of endangering that child and failing to teach him or her safe behavior.
They're being remiss in their duties as an adult to a child.

Quote:

Remembering back to my own
childhood, I conversed with adults all the time, with no ill effects.

Yeah - so did I - but again, this is TOTALLY DIFFERENT! Can you not see that?

Quote:

One of the options that we have in enjoying life on Earth is friendship.

Yeah, well, then let her get a little pen pal her own age.

1 Reply

@najmelliw,

Quote:

These kind of accusations are VERY serious, as they can potentially scar a person for life. And people are more and more free about spreading these rumors around. I've seen the consequences of these actions, where a friend of mine who did volunteer work with children immediately stopped it when a rumor started to circle around. Despite the fact that he likes working with children, he has refrained from doing so since, and will probably never do so again. The accusations have hurt him a lot.

I abhor the media subjecting these individuals to public scorn and derision. I abhor that society, even after a pedophile has undergone treatment and a sentence, and is entitled yb law to have a new change, still spits those individuals out. There are (or at least were) websites where such people are singled out, with their adress listed.

If there is no way for people to believe that they can change, it might even be more HUMANE for such 'predators' to be simply be put to death, because they are convicted for life anyway, and outside of the prison walls, no one will look out for their safety.

It's a dilemma, isn't it? No easy answer.
Sort of ironic though that you write the above, when your signature seems to warn or encourage us to do exactly what you seem to be cautioning us against as abhorrent behavior:

Quote:

When there are two conflicting versions of a story, the wise course is to believe the one in which people appear at their worst."

I don't think you can be too careful with a child's emotional and physical health. I'm sorry - but my motto with my own children and any child I encounter has and always will be -'Better safe than sorry'.

I am just not able to care more about the rights of has been or would-be predators than I am about innocent children.
To me there's absolutely no contest.

1 Reply

@aidan,

Quote:

The minute they click the mouse to start talking to underage children about sex, they might as well walk downstairs and into the living room and tell their wives and children - 'I'm doing everything in my power to **** up your lives and ruin our family's happiness.'

Nowhere did it say nor imply that this was the case. The talk on the chat room led to sex (was it cyber flirting or , like here on A2k where the subject frequently is out there), when the subject led to the cop saying she was an 11 year old, apparently the guy said "NO WAY". The circumstances that followed could just as easily have played out that the guy, when he was assured that an adult would accompany the kid, was set to chew out the adult. DId that ever occur to you ?
NO I THINK NOT, you are too busy jumping to conclusions

1 Reply

@farmerman,

The entire opening post is absolute nonsense. There's no way to jump to any conclusions about that post because it doesn't even make sense. The woman says she's 28 and then says she's bringing someone of age with her? What? Okay...

From my reading of this thread, it's been pretty much concluded that this post is nothing but a bunch of gibberish and a jumping off point for the rest of the conversation which was a combinations of 'What ifs?'
Then Bill brought up the tv show where apparently there were men who were clicking the mouse and making plans to meet up and even though they didn' do anything, they were held accountable and in low esteem because they WERE talking to kids in a sexual manner on the internet.

Those were the situations I was referring to.

And honestly, you know what? If I were to jump to conclusions, which everyone is guilty of doing in one situation or another or at one time or another- I'd rather jump to the wrong conclusion that kept the child safe than jump to the wrong conclusion that saw the child hurt.

1 Reply

@aidan,

I rest my argument, youve made my point very well.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

rightio - and you're welcome.

0 Replies

@Setanta,

Unless the "facts" as they were presented in the initial posting were updated and made a hell of a lot more clear, I doubt that they would ever be interpreted as facts by any sane person.

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@DrewDad,

Quote:

In fact, perhaps men are so dangerous that they should be isolated from women and children entirely....

The only method that will ever work is to kill all males at birth.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

Perhaps I missed something,

Duuuuhhhhh.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Re: JTT (Post 3673021)
But, any guy stupid enough to fal;l for that crap deserves whatever he gets

I didn't say that, MM did.

0 Replies

@najmelliw,

Quote:

Any adult solliciting sex from a minor should be arrested. If the adult thinks he is dealing with a minor while solliciting for sex, the adult is as far as I am concerned guilty and should be send to jail.

But what if the adult doesnt know that the other person is a minor?
What if the minor lies about their age, AND produces fake ID?

Both scenarios have happened in the past.

3 Replies

Something a little like this happened to me around the 1970s
or 80s; I got a call at home from a girl who sounded about 12,
in company with friends in the background. It became clear
that she was playing with the telefone. She said that she got
my fone number from the Mensa Register n asked me if I was
a lawyer and sought my professional services for some contractual
matter. There was no discussion of meeting. She turned the
conversation to sex and began generating orgasmic sounds.

My vu was that if she wanted to play with the fone, I don 't have to
rain on her parade, so I was polite and cordial.

On another occasion, I got another call at home from an adult woman,
possibly in her 20s or 30s, judging by her voice, who was also
playing with the fone. Again, there was no discussion of meeting.
Her character on the fone was an indignant woman chastizing me
for being mean to my girlfriend. She refused to identify herself
or the purported girlfriend, but she complained on and on n on.
Again, I felt no need to be rude to her.
I did not mind if she wanted to play with the fone,
so I entertained her politely and cordially.

Sometimes chicks like to play with fones.
So far as I know, boys never do that; I never even thawt of doing it.

David

0 Replies

@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
Any adult solliciting sex from a minor should be arrested.
If the adult thinks he is dealing with a minor while solliciting for sex,
the adult is as far as I am concerned guilty and should be send to jail.

But what if the adult doesnt know that the other person is a minor?
What if the minor lies about their age, AND produces fake ID?

Both scenarios have happened in the past.

In the premise of this thread,
we have been told that the putative 11 year old girl
tendered the unlawful solicitation to the male adult, who rejected it.

Shoud the girl be prosecuted for criminal solicitation ?

David

0 Replies

@mysteryman,

And by our current laws it does not matter if she have every bit of legal paperwork in the world proving for any reasonable person that she is not a minor if she is a minor after all then they hang you.

We are not driven by logic when it come to sex any more then a Muslin middle east country is.

We produce laws concerning child porn claiming it is to protect our young people and then turn around and used those very laws as a weapon against our young people.

We allow grown adults to play the part of very very horny teenagers over the internet to try to lure males to ruin their lives with t he claim that this is somehow protecting normal young children that would not normally be in the mood or business of luring old men to their home.

0 Replies

entrapment or not

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