entrapment or not

@Green Witch,

Green Witch all I am asking for is a few dollars spend to show that the men who enter into fantasy chats on the internet with other adults pretending to be children are in fact a danger to real children or had harm real children.

We are without question harming real children when we lock up their fathers and even after their releases we had ended their ability to provide in any real manner for their families are we not Green Witch?

If you so sure that such men are in fact a real danger to children why do you have a problem with finding out one way or another for sure?

For the cost of locking up ten or twenty men we could have a very nice university base study with scientific controls and peer review that could find out if we are wasting resources and harming children and families of these men for no net gain or not.

3 Replies

@BillRM,

In the PA case, the accused has a really good story, and , with the concept of PRESUMED INNOCENSE not fully trampled by many of you, maybe he has a chance.

1 Reply

@my3girls,

There are a lot of gaps in this scenario that could make a difference, but I doubt an entrapment defense will be successful.

It is very difficult to believe that a 27 year old man who ends up getting arrested because he went to meet an 11 year for the purpose of some sort of sexual activity, was not trolling tweener chat rooms looking for victims.

The entrapment defense is intended to protect innocent citizens from being deceived and coerced by police into committing a crime they would not otherwise have been inclined to commit.

The prattle about protecting civil right, as respects this scenario, is just that.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Entrapment come into play when the adults pretending to the children do not act as real children would but instead act more like fantasy players being very sexual forward themselves.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Here in religious Lancaster County, weve had two cases of young girls actually conspiring to bring down some teachers that they just didnt like. The girls, in separate cases, had their band and PE teachers entangled in a web of accusations of sexual predation. The stories were so similar that , after the teachers reps were totally trashed by "good Christian neighbors quick to judge and jump to conclusions of the worst kind", the investigations were led to a finding that the young girls just cooked this up as a mode of some kind of sick revenge.
One of the teachers tried to commit suicide and both had their family lives and their positions of trust in the community just ruined. What happened to the girls? so far they are being given some kind of alap on the wrists and a severe reprimand.

Im just calling for as careful investigations as any cap crime. We have a number of examples of overzealous cops and criminal kids. How many of these "Entrap" cases are actually real?

Its almost impossible to be a scout leader or big brother, or 4H sponsor without exposing oneself to the risk of some sick kid or publicity happy cop.

NOW, if any of these stories are investigated thoroughly and the guys are found to be seriously indictable, then throw the book at em, Im just saying that , from the tone of this thread, most every one seems to be piling on and NOBODY has ANY of the evidence against the ALLEGED predator.

Im just waaaay too cynical to trust any kid any longer. (Even in my recent past classes I had a rule of no office times or firld work except in groups or I use several grad students as mentors .

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How about the Government setting up a "tip line" where information can be obtained by citizens posing as kids and then hacking the computers of possible pedophiles? This information is illegal if obtained by a law enforcement person, but private citizens are encouraged to do the dirty work. From then on legal evidence is looked for against a particular person. The law does an end run around the law in order to entrap citizens, which will come in handy when we move on to J Edgar Hoover style investigations against political undesirables.

Quote:

The Congressionally-mandated CyberTipline is a means for reporting crimes against children including:

Possession, manufacture, and distribution of child pornography
Online enticement of children for sexual acts
Child prostitution
Sex Tourism Involving Children
Extrafamilial Child Sexual Molestation
Unsolicited Obscene Material Sent to a Child
Misleading Domain Names
Misleading Words or Digital Images on the Internet
Reports may be made 24-hours a day, 7 days a week online at www.cybertipline.com or by calling 1-800-843-5678.

http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PageServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&PageId=2446

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

My problem , technically, isnt with the "Tips line" its with the recognition that a significant number of people are gonna be falsly accused and will be imprisoned by cyber "vigilantes". We havent evolved enough where we can trust us to do only right, Im sorry but THIS I BELIEVE.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Do you think pedophiles are only attracted to children who behave sexually like adults, and in the event an actual minor is very sexually forward does this mean he or she is asking for it?

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@farmerman,

Bands of cyber vigilantes work closely with those manning the tip lines, they are encouraged to conduct illegal operations. I have a problem with law enforcement encouraging illegal activity, even if that illegal activity produces perps that otherwise would not be found. It shreds the constitutional theory of unlawful search and seizure. Government should not snoop on its citizens in the project of looking for crime, there is a privacy zone and Government must honor it. Government sub-contracts out the unlawful entrapment, but it is responsible for it and all evidence found as a result of this entrapment should not be allowed in court.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

when you put it that way,you make cyber vigilanteism a global problem. Therefore I dont even trust that youre giving me accurate and truthful information. You are implying that the mahority of the tips line monitors are cyber vigilantes. Im just worried about a fringe contingent and how that will trample peoples civil rights. You make it sound like weve already turned the corner to a police state and I dont buy that at all.

This thread is set up with a presumption that such cases commonly exist and that just to be accused is to be (sort of) found guilty by some kind of association. You are saying something thats equally as far fetched except from the other side.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

All parties, the law enforcement, child protection and the vigilantes all have an interest in keeping this activity quiet, but there has over the years been a few media reports. Unfortunately the media has become complicit with their general willingness to comply with the request that they don't report this story. It is not like there is a silent majority that cares if illegal tactics are used against the presumed paedophiles anyway, the story does not have an audience.

This ties into your concern I think, as big nets will catch innocents as well as perps. The lives of the innocent will be sifted, and who knows what skeletons law enforcement will find. Who knows how long your life story will sit on some database waiting for use against you.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Green Witch all I am asking for is a few dollars spend to show that the men who enter into fantasy chats on the internet with other adults pretending to be children are in fact a danger to real children or had harm real children.

Does it only fulfill their fantasy if they think these other adults are real children? If that's not the case, why don't they just create a website where adults pretend to be children saying sexual stuff, you know - like those virtual second worlds-and leave the innocent victims totally out of it.
And if that is the case - how can you defend their 'rights' to do this?

Because you know, I'm not sure that even just using an eleven year old as a sexual sounding board for anonymous and strange men is a healthy or productive use of these childen.
These people are USING these children Bill. Whether they ever meet or touch them or not.
Do you agree with this?

If I found out some guy was using my daughter this way - I'd meet up with him myself and knock his sick head off his shoulders. And he'd have never had to even so much as laid eyes on her for me to feel that he'd used her.

And the fact that some of these guys are waiting to middle age makes it even more dangerous. That means this **** has been simmering in their heads for years and they might be to the point of desperation in terms of getting it out.

1 Reply

@my3girls,

my3girls wrote:

Here is the senario- 27 year old male in chat room having conversation with female and at some point conversation turns to sex and male finds out girl is 11 and says no offense but no way. Girl comes back and makes statements about whythey can't meet as she is not a snitch and also states and I'm not a cop. She sends a picture of herself, she is really a 28 year old detective on the internet. She says she is bringing someone of age with her. male stupidly goes to meet up with them.

Federal criminal charge? State criminal charge? which state? What's the charge? Attempted enticement?

Entrapment is a possible defense, but not likely to succeed. There are perhaps better defenses depending on jurisdiction and charge(s) involved.

Here's an informative law review article:

http://www.law.missouri.edu/lawreview/docs/72-3/Boggess.pdf

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@Finn dAbuzz,

No but is there or is there not a good percent of men who would not had acted on their desires unless they ran into "children" that are in fact adults acting as sexually forward fantasy children?

If that is the case those men who families also containing children we are destroying, we are doing for no good reason.

Seem like a good idea to find out for sure before we destroy those families and harm children and spend resources that could be better spend elsewhere would you not say?

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@aidan,

Because you know, I'm not sure that even just using an eleven year old as a sexual sounding board for anonymous and strange men is a healthy or productive use of these childen.
These people are USING these children Bill. Whether they ever meet or touch them or not.
Do you agree with this?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And normal children would be willing to act as sounding boards? Would see any benefits from having those conversation with middle age men?

Assuming that is true and we do not know even that for sure, that some minor harm would come to random children does that out weight the harm done to the children that the men are supporting and raising?

Why do you and others have a problem with finding out the facts one way or another?

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@BillRM,

Quote:

We are without question harming real children when we lock up their fathers and even after their releases we had ended their ability to provide in any real manner for their families are we not Green Witch?

Let's say I work with a man whom I tempt to steal from our employer. He has never committed a crime before, pays his taxes and has a family. I convince the man to commit theft. He might never have done this on his own, but I assure him it will be easy and he will not get caught. He opens the money safe and discovers a cop waiting for him. Is he guilty of a crime? Should all charges be dismissed because I led him into temptation and he pays his taxes and feeds his family? Don't we have free will about these things? Shouldn't a person take responsibility for their decisions? Should some people be above the law if they have a respectable economic and social status? I didn't open the safe or take any money I just gave him the idea - who is guilty of what?

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

It is very difficult to believe that a 27 year old man who ends up getting arrested because he went to meet an 11 year for the purpose of some sort of sexual activity, was not trolling tweener chat rooms looking for victims.

I think Finn is correct about the initial actions of these men.

We get kids (some real, some pretend) on this forum all the time and I don't see people coming on to them. I think the trolling happens on kids forums where the kids, cops and pedophiles all hang out.

I have a gaggle of nieces. One of my nieces once complained about guys stalking her on a teen music forum, so I went in on her user name (obviously female) and asked a fairly mild question about kissing to see what would happen. It was like a fly in a web and the spiders descending. Within minutes I had a bunch of males (all claiming to be about 16 years old) coming onto me and promising to teach me the right way to kiss. They kept up the chat trying to get me to give more details about my sexual experiences and trying to find out where I lived. I think some 13 year olds might be lured in by the attention and make bad decisions. I think the majority of my responders were much older than 16. I think older men have to look to make these contacts and that action alone makes them suspect for much worse.

1 Reply

@Green Witch,

So let us go with this example of your and add that there was never any funds in the safe to start with and the employer had gone along with this set up of his or her employee.

Under those set of conditions I do not think that he should or could be charge with a crime.

1 Reply

@Green Witch,

One of my nieces once complained about guys stalking her on a teen music forum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So we have an example of how a real child who is approach by someone online behaved IE she complained about it.

She did not carry on a long conversation of a sexual nature and then invited the man/boy over when her parents was out of the house.

1 Reply

@Green Witch,

Green Witch wrote:

Let's say I work with a man whom I tempt to steal from our employer. He has never committed a crime before, pays his taxes and has a family. I convince the man to commit theft. He might never have done this on his own, but I assure him it will be easy and he will not get caught. He opens the money safe and discovers a cop waiting for him. Is he guilty of a crime? Should all charges be dismissed because I led him into temptation and he pays his taxes and feeds his family? Don't we have free will about these things? Shouldn't a person take responsibility for their decisions? Should some people be above the law if they have a respectable economic and social status? I didn't open the safe or take any money I just gave him the idea - who is guilty of what?

In your scenario, YOU would probably be charged with criminal solicitation; and the co-worker would probably be charged with attempted theft.

1 Reply

entrapment or not

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