IDEAL Religion...

in a religion like catholicism rituals are not only personal but a community event (ie. communion). it is a communion of the people and the diety.

and that's an area of religion where there is disagreement. should religion be personal or communal?

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ye110man -- Probably both.

IdealSingh -- Couldn't follow all of that, but did get the gist... that a ritual killing was demanded becasue "two Sahibzadaz (Children) of Guru Gobind Singh ji were produced in Darbar of Wasir Khan of Fatehgrah Sahib." I'm guessing that probably because these children were born to the wrong person, out of wedlock, or *something* there was a demand for their death.

And yes, not allowing the blood to spill, but otherwise killing them, was extremely horrible and a vicious twisting of a rule (which in itself is a good one -- not to kill the innocents). Hateful, really hateful and I hope an example of rotten behavior, not how to go about circumventing a law.

Have you ever seen the film, Dogma? That is another example of ritual gone astray... so astray that it has humorous aspects. I recommend it to you (warning, some sex & violence on screen).

Do you have any rituals connected with the full moon? I like to be sure and NOTICE it, give recognition to the moment. It reminds me that time goes on, month by month and also that life on earth is extraordinarily beautiful.

YOu are a Sikh? I used to work with a group that included a Sikh. He was funny. He would say, "I am a Sikh, Sikh man," a play on the word "sick." Very nice and very respectful to everyone. It is an interesting religion, not mine, but worthy, I think.

What I like least about religion, what is most UN-Ideal, is a religion that forces followers to believe something, even if they don't. They are trying to make them lie to their own souls, which may be one of the worst sins.

To me, religion and belief has to come from within. That is what Taoists believe -- that the glory of the universe is so obvious and so universal that we have become dulled to it, so jaded that we don't even see it. We stumble over it every day and ignore what is before us. The rituals of the philosphical Taoist help us to recognize the sacred in everyday things.

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I hear you IDEAL Singh, many rituals are stupid and outdated. It is hard for me to explain what ritual means to me. I have a nebulous definition of both ritual and religion. I do what I need to do, to do well unto others, plain and simple, and without harm. It is indeed personal, and not connected to any religion, just a feeling that treating others well is a good thing to do. I have some rituals that simply help me clear my head, my negative thoughts, and that is a good thing. I don't claim any religion or ritual beyond what is myself.

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I have been practicing TaiChi. I guess this can look like a ritual--but it has a purpose. I am loving it. It really helps me reduce stress.

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Piffka wrote:

YOu are a Sikh? I used to work with a group that included a Sikh. He was funny. He would say, "I am a Sikh, Sikh man," a play on the word "sick." Very nice and very respectful to everyone. It is an interesting religion, not mine, but worthy, I think.

Yeah !!

Sikhs are one of the most upbeat community of this world... Always in high spirits... We use the term "Chardi Kala" for upbeat... Very Happy

you will always find the sikhs representing themselves in the most decent way...

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IdealSingh -- Chardi Kala sounds good. I'm glad you're here to tell us a little. I have read a little about the Sikh religion -- let's see, the men are always to carry a daggar, wrap their heads and... something else... hmm, I forget... carry a comb? Each is a ritual reminder of your faith, I think. Of course, I appreciate that Sikh's have equality between men and women. It is an evolved religion and you sound happy in it. For you, it is an ideal religon, I think.

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Piffka wrote:

IdealSingh -- Chardi Kala sounds good. I'm glad you're here to tell us a little. I have read a little about the Sikh religion -- let's see, the men are always to carry a daggar, wrap their heads and... something else... hmm, I forget... carry a comb? Each is a ritual reminder of your faith, I think. Of course, I appreciate that Sikh's have equality between men and women. It is an evolved religion and you sound happy in it. For you, it is an ideal religon, I think.

Firstly, before continuing with this discussion... you would probably acknowledge the fact that at no point of mine, I have ever passed a comment on a particular Religion... I have been talking only on General terms only. Nowhere, I have tried to slander any Religion or used the word Christain faith, Muslim faith or for that matter any Religion or faith.

I am getting what you are referring to... Rituals. But, I think you missed an important point in my last post about ritualism... need is to go beyond these symbols and meet the almighty... not that these sysmbols are the everything...

The symbols, to a person (He or She) following Sikh faith are not Rituals but these are to make him distinuished from rest of the crowd so that when a crisis situation arises, he can not hide himself and mingle with the rest of the Bunch like a coward. A Sikh can be indentified in the crowd of Millions like a Lion... . But again some of us make it nothing more than an ritual... which is again wrong I believe...

However, for general knowledge, in Sikhism these five symbols (5 kakkars) refer to as follows:

Kesh - uncut hair and beard, as given by God, to sustain him or her in higher consciousness; and a turban, the crown of spirituality.

Kangha - a wooden comb to properly groom the hair as a symbol of cleanliness.

Katchera - specially made cotton underwear as a reminder of the commitment to purity.

Kara - a steel circle, worn on the wrist, signifying bondage to Truth and freedom from every other entanglement.

Kirpan - the sword, with which the Khalsa is committed to righteously defend the fine line of the Truth.

Remain in Chardi Kala !! Very Happy

Regards

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Yes, IdealSingh, I'm quite willing to acknowledge those things... you have been very careful not to mention another religion. I also was trying to be careful when I said "a ritual reminder of your faith" -- which is not a bad thing at all.

Everyday when you put these symbols on, it is a reminder. We all need to be reminded, caught as we are in the mundane. I had forgotten that these were also to show that you are a Sikh to others. "A lion in the crowd"? I like that. I know that many people have been horribly persecuted for being Sikhs. It was, it still is, a high mark of bravery to be so open.

I doubt that many people at a2k know much about your religion. They are probably curious and would be interested if you'd like to tell more. (That is a leading question designed to encourage you! Very Happy

)

Ahhh, I see that you had a similar thought. Thanks! To any other readers: IdealSingh has posted a thread about Sikhism here.

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Piffka wrote:

Yes, IdealSingh, I'm quite willing to acknowledge those things... you have been very careful not to mention another religion. I also was trying to be careful when I said "a ritual reminder of your faith" -- which is not a bad thing at all.

Everyday when you put these symbols on, it is a reminder. We all need to be reminded, caught as we are in the mundane. I had forgotten that these were also to show that you are a Sikh to others. "A lion in the crowd"? I like that. I know that many people have been horribly persecuted for being Sikhs. It was, it still is, a high mark of bravery to be so open.

I doubt that many people at a2k know much about your religion. They are probably curious and would be interested if you'd like to tell more. (That is a leading question designed to encourage you! )

Ahhh, I see that you had a similar thought. Thanks! To any other readers: IdealSingh has posted a thread about Sikhism here.

Thanx Piffka for giving some breathing space in this forum...

As I said before there is no need to be afraid of Sikh symbols... You can get more information on 5 Ks of Khalsa below...

http://allaboutsikhs.com/basics/sikhsymbols.htm

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Ideal, This is a ritual that, although I am "not of the faith" to put it mildly, I used to hear daily on the radio when we were milking.

"Hail Mary, full of grace, Lord be with thee, Blessed be the women and children and blessed be the fruit of thy womb Jesus."

"Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

I probably didn't remember it exactly, but since it has been some forty six years since I last heard it and, well you get the idea.

I was impressed by it then, and still am impressed by the power, longing, and faith implied in those words. (I still do love words)

If you haven't run across it before that was the Rosary. The Catholics still broadcast it on TV and radio usually. It's about 15 to 30 minutes of a priest repeating those words slowly and with feeling. If I was Catholic that would be my favorite part Smile

.

This represents the Catholic view that God is a busy man. I used to figure that He had saints acting as secretaries. Hence the plethoria of saints in the Catholic religion.

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akaMechsmith wrote:

Ideal, This is a ritual that, although I am "not of the faith" to put it mildly, I used to hear daily on the radio when we were milking.

"Hail Mary, full of grace, Lord be with thee, Blessed be the women and children and blessed be the fruit of thy womb Jesus."

"Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

I probably didn't remember it exactly, but since it has been some forty six years since I last heard it and, well you get the idea.

I was impressed by it then, and still am impressed by the power, longing, and faith implied in those words. (I still do love words)

If you haven't run across it before that was the Rosary. The Catholics still broadcast it on TV and radio usually. It's about 15 to 30 minutes of a priest repeating those words slowly and with feeling. If I was Catholic that would be my favorite part .

This represents the Catholic view that God is a busy man. I used to figure that He had saints acting as secretaries. Hence the plethoria of saints in the Catholic religion.

This is no Ritual... you are not at all indulging in an illogical activity Exclamation

In Sikhism this is called Ardaas... a prayer/request to the Almighty to do good for everyone...

In Sikhism there are no secretaries... every individual has the equal chance to meet the Almighty... Everybody who wants to understand the meaning of SGGS and talk to the Guru, needs only to learn Gurmukhi language and there you are... taking instructions from the Guru... himself... Everyone can directly take instructions from the Guru... the messenger of Almighty... Very Happy

I have to go now... I will be back latter...

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IDEAL Singh wrote:

This is no Ritual... you are not at all indulging in an illogical activity In Sikhism this is called Ardaas... a Prayer to the Almighty to do good for everyone...

In continuation....

The importance that Sikhs attach to working and wishing well for others can be seen in the fact that Sikhs pray aloud at least twice a day.:

"O God, in your name, shower your blessings on everyone."

In other words, Sikhs pray not only for themselves alone but also for all Humanity.

This belief in the oneness of all Humanity, and the insistance on working for the welfare of all people, whether Sikhz or not, at the cost of sacrificing one's life, is what sets Sikhism apart from other Religions. In a world, which is torn by strife because of differeing beliefs, Sikhism is unique. Sikhs are offered free meals and other facilities in Gurudwaras. Sikhs donot harbour ill will against any person, including adversaries.

There are numerous examples of Sikhs helping foes in need. After battle, Bhai Kanahya, a water carrier of Guru Gobing Singh at Anandpur Sahib, used to give water and first aid to ALL wounded persons, Sikhs and non-Sikhs alike. Three centuries ago, Guru Gobind Singh made arrangement to take care of and help all the wounded after battle, whether they werer his own men or his opponents.

Sikhs respects all persons. People may appear differenct becuase of their language, color, social habits but these variations are superficial and the result of different cultures and climates, but internally, we all have the same spirit. Just as gold can be made into ornaments of different designs but it remains gold, so people's outward appearances can be different but still remain human beings created by the same God.

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Singh,

I think that we may be giving different definitions to the word ritual.

Personally I would call anything that is exactly repeated time after time as a ritualistic practice. Anything from calling a superior officer "Sir"
to getting up and shaving at the same time every day.

Thats what I meant and I think it's fair to call "The Rosary" and Aardas rituals. Along with "Oom", The Christian "Our Father who art in heaven etc. and the Muslim "call to prayer. Christians who say"grace" before meals, and the American bridegroom who carries his bride into the house on their wedding day. They are all rituals. We couldn't get along without them. Whether they are "Divine", or where they blend into "custom" is a subject for another thread.

There is no shame in ritual, and I did not intend to denigrate anyones rituals, nor imply any disrespect. Merely a differing value of words. Not uncommon when using English. Confused

I read your links. I found them very interesting. I am sending them off to a young friend who is quite interested in the varieties of religion that we have in humanity on Earth today. Her Dad also wears a beard but for fundamentalist Christian reasons.

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akaMechsmith wrote:

Along with "Oom", The Christian "Our Father who art in heaven etc. and the Muslim "call to prayer.

I Sikhism we call "EkOom" that means there is only one God to whom we pray...

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I wonder How these IDEALS have influenced the society? Probably, because any religion which does not exert itself by FORCE will not have such a great impact. Why do we need religion at all? How about an IDEAL philosophy, or IDEAL constitution?

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IDEAL Religion...

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