IDEAL Religion...

Main Entry: 1rit·u·al
Pronunciation: 'ri-ch&-w&l, -ch&l; 'rich-w&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin ritualis, from ritus rite
Date: 1570
1 : of or relating to rites or a ritual : CEREMONIAL <a ritual dance>
2 : according to religious law or social custom <ritual purity>
- rit·u·al·ly adverb

Is this agreed?

Hmm....repetitive yes, mindless, perhaps, should you take it as an exercise for clearing your mind (not a bad thing really). It's like feeling better after a workout, more relaxed, more focused, etc. How one decides on their rituals is up to them. Life is ritual. We get up, we have a morning routine, we go to work, we shop, we come home, we take care of our lives and our family in a particular way, all ritual, and we may bitch about it, but ultimately, it makes us feel like we are doing something good, and that is good for the soul.

1570, that definition is outdated

Mindless? LOL

Remember the thread about Buddhists really having the secret to happiness? There have been all sorts of studies on the benefits of meditation, in various forms. I see many rituals as being a form of meditation.

Joseph Campbell has written a LOT about the importance of ceremony and ritual in society. What I think is unfortunate (in some ways, anyway) is that secular, community-based rituals have largely faded, leaving religious rituals and the baggage they carry.

<Merriam Webster...grumble...>

To me-- a ritual is something practiced without a specific goal. Routines aren't rituals to me, if each action has a goal. Meditation has a goal-- To clear your mind, to relax.

Maybe Merriam Webster and I are operating on outdated definitions... A ritual (IMO) is something done without thinking, or with no intended purpose. Like an OCD sufferer. They touch the light switch five times before turning it on-- a dog turns in a circle three times before laying down-- You do something without really knowing why...

Thinking further-- I guess people may have personal reasons, and goals while practicing what I refer to as religious rituals--making it for them, more than a mindless ritual.

Sophia, There is nothing wrong with the definition you listed however you only listed the use of the word as an adjective. When you look at the MW definition as a noun it comes up as:



I think what Cav, Piffka and I lean towards is what I highlighted there.

I don't know of any religious ritual that has no purpose. They all became rituals for a reason. That reason may be lost on those that carry on the rituals today or it may just not be apparent to an outsider.

Rituals and such terrified the Protestants during the "Great" Reformation, Sofia and anyone who performed these was likely to suffer severe punishment, which is how you've probably come to think of them as stupid and mindless.

I took to heart what Joseph Campbell (and many others, Jung, Bolen, Merton, etc.) have said about the emptiness of a life without ritual and rites. Sometime, please try walking a sacred labyrinth. To me, that is the essence of a ritual. You may be surprised at the feelings that come.

I honor and revere ritual. One of my most favorite is done by the Hopi Elders who greet the sunrise every morning and spill a tiny bit of corn onto the ground in thankfulness and as a blessing and hope for peace. They've been doing it for eons. As far as I'm concerned, without the Hopi looking out for us, we'd be screwed.

i guess marriage can be mindless and repetitive for some.

Liz Taylor?? lol

IMHO, Any religion that promotes doing good for one's fellow man is at least partly right.
Any religion that insists it is the only true religion is at least partly wrong.

Actually, Piffka, I have been operating on my meaning of 'ritual', moreso that anti-religion sentiment. And, I didn't have Catholics in mind, until now. I never heard criticism of ...say, Catholic pomp, circumstance or big hats... before I came to the personal conclusion that Catholics practiced some behaviors I thought were more ridiculous than the basic religions I was accustomed to--(not many, as a grade schooler), but this is the first time I've ever communicated that to anyone (except one girl in High School, who I asked about the Pope, and why people bowed to him, and kissed his ring. That was considered 'idol worship' by me and most Baptists...) When I first heard about confession, and saying Hail Mary's, it made quite an impression. Repeating a pre-ordained mantra (it seemed to me) was the height of fakery and insincerity. Of course, I realize that I have no idea what is going on in someone's mind--and that I'm no a judge of Catholicism, or others' hearts or motivations.

Its funny, now, that I feel a need to clarify. I think its great that people go to church. If they find comfort or something positive there, who could be against that?

I do have issues with human corruption in religious hierarchy, definitely not specific to Catholicism. And, it disturbs me that 'ritual' has gained significance in churches, while basic humankindness has, IMO, plummeted. I am impatient for the church to return to its purpose... and get off the tangent trail.

I have an unrealistic desire that 'religious institutions' behave in a way that sets them apart from other institutions. <I know. I should get over it.>

i don't think there is any direct relation between ritualism and "humankindness." in fact ritualism can only increase it. it can increase spirituality and respect. i don't see how it would diminish it.

I wouldn't say ritualism is in opposition to humankindness-- but a distraction from it.

Sophia, I only mentioned that since I assumed you were Protestant in background and they have long protested against ritual, historically speaking. It would be likely that whether you knew it or not, you have absorbed a great distate for the idea. Not that Baptists don't have their fair share of ritual -- Baptism being pretty major in my mind.

I see nothing wrong with picking and choosing your rituals, btw. Freedom is all.

Promoting doing good is an excellent thing, Equus, and I guess that most of us, me anyway, have just taken for granted that an Ideal Religion would encourage its adherents to be the very best and kindest that they could be.

I would add, kindnesses offered to everyone, not just other members of the fellowship.

Einstein said it nicely: How strange is the lot of us mortals! Each of us is here for a brief sojourn;for what purpose we know not, though sometimes sense it. But we know from daily life that we exist for other people first of all for whose smiles and well-being our own happiness depends.

He also said:
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.

Ideal religion - ideal how? Do you mean ideal in that it has a true philosophy? In that case, the ideal religion would not be a religion at all, but a science. Or do you mean that an ideal religion would be good for people? Which people? Common people, people in the establishment, people outside the religion, or something else entirely? Unfortunately, "ideal" is a subjective, not an objective, term.

Science... You got it dead right... Science means practicability of a thing... Right now we are disussing the practicability of Ritulaz...

- Sorry -

Rituals are more a part of social behavior than religion, though. Religion, that is, the philosophy that leads people to make conclusions about the universe and God and so forth has little to do with rituals except where it has to do with social behaviors.

I agree with all of you about the need of Ritualz while practicing Religion... here is my perspective on Ritualz... and kindly learn to bear with my usage of "z"... I just love it... I hope you dont mind thanx coz communication of message is more important than using 'z'... Thanx.......

Ritualz are perhapz OK but to a Limit, that limit is limited to ourselves only... a truly personal thing. We have neither a right to point a fingure on otherz nor we can enforce it upon otherz to follow a Ritual blindly. We have to understand that these Ritualz are a simple instruments gifted to us by messenger of the Almighty so that we are attached towards the Almighty... People hopelessly entangled in the cluches of Ritualz only become cruel and fundanmetalist in their approach to other faiths... becasue they could not go beyond these Ritualz... They contented that these Ritualz are everything...

When we make otherz follow a Ritual on sheer -> Fear Factor and for -> personal gain i.e. when we are told that we are commiting a eternal sin if we dont follow a particular activity then -> that activity becomez a Ritual for me and is when Ritualizm loses itz appeal to me... Need is to go beyond the outwardly Ritualz and be attached to the Almighty during our life timez... Unfortunately, most of us tend to be entangled in these Rituals only and can not go beyond...

Let me elaborate...

As I am more aware of Sikh perspective on Ritualz, I am quoting some historical fact about the Ritualiztic people as narrated by a noted Sikh philosopher Giani Sant Singh Ji Maskeen. Plz correct me where I am wrong as my translerative skillz are pretty much limited...

Maskeen Ji sayz have we ever thought of a person who would not take off his Kakkarz (Symbolz of being a Sikh or Khalsa) while taking bath... and would not do it anytime... We would say he is a firm Ritaulistic person... Nothing wrong with it really... but then Maskeen Ji further sayz that the need is to go beyond these symbols. The people who have been only entangled in these Ritualz have become Cruel becasue they could not go beyond these symbolz...

He also quotes some historical factual examples of Ritaulistic people: firstly, Mughal Empror Aurangzeb, as described in Zafarnamaa (a letter of Victory )written by "Guru Gobind Singh Ji" (10th Sikh Guru) to Aurangzeb... and Secondly the "Scholarly" people in the Darbar of Wasir Khan of Fatehgrah Sahib...

1.

In Zafarnama, Guru Ji sayz: Aurangzeb! You have some very good properties too... you wake up early in the morning... Recite your prayerz of five timez without fail... Try to understand the teachingz of Quoran (Talawat) with the scholarly people in your Darbar... Sell holy Capz (topiyan) woven by your own handz... and you never beg for anyone to eat rather you eat from your own earningz from selling these holy Capz... BUT even after doing such respectable activities, You are a DEMON... (You have done nothing for Humanity other than just being a pure Karma Kandi or Ritualistic person.... You are not Human...)

2.

When two Sahibzadaz (Children) of Guru Gobind Singh ji were produced in Darbar of Wasir Khan of Fatehgrah Sahib, Wasir Khan was shocked to note the innocent age of the two children. He said these kidz are innocent... What have they done to be afraid off... He said "We should spare them.".

-> Now, one of the a scholarly people in his Darbar, who has in one hand a Mala (a collection of stonez bound by a thread for repeatedly reciting the name of the Lord) & in other hand he has Gita, which he recites daily without fail to derive the true meaning... a truly Ritauliztic Person. This "Scholarly" person stressed to kill these kidz as they would create trouble when they grow up ->the Fear Factor !! He said Wasir Khan you should kill them instantly, otherwise you are doomed.

Now, Wasir Khan being confused said Quoran does not allow the blood of the innocent kidz to be spilt on Earth... at this another of the "scholarly" person... who too had a Mala in this one hand and a Quoran in his other hand... which he would recite without fail all the five timez and to derive the True meaning of Quoran... a truly Ritauliztic Person. He sayz agreed that quoran does not allow the blood of the children spilt on earth... He continued cruely... So What? We would kill them in such a way that no drop of blood is spilt on Earth... and thus these so called "Scholarly" people, who were true "Ritualiztic" and with their "Wisdom" manipulted the Holy Bookz and wrote one of the ugliest cruelest chapter in history of Mankind...

So, if our KARAMz or DEEDz are not complimenting our outwardly appearance... all is useless... all is a mere Ritual... And we have infact made these "Guidez to Spritualizm" a mere game in our filthy handz...

So, Ritualz are perhapz OK but to a Limit. We have to understand that these Ritualz are a simple instruments so that we are attached towards the Almighty... People hopelessly entangled in the cluches of Ritualz only become cruel and fundanmetalist in their approach to other faiths... becasue they could not go beyond these Ritualz... They contented that these Ritualz are everything...

I apologise if I have hurt someonez feelingz...

Humbly