IDEAL Religion...

Sofia wrote:

What do you think the establishment of ritualism serves?

It seems like mindless indoctrination to me. Training, rather than teaching... Repetitive practices. What is your answer?

I percieve Ritaulizm is a Hindrance to our eternal Goal i.e. to meet the one True Lord... It is just like that in the ancient timez ignorant people used to worship just about anything owing to lack of knowldege or logicz... They did it to apease like Rain Godz, Sun for Light, Fire... just about anything...

We still follow these Ritualz coz thatz what our earliar generationz did... We seem not to use any logicz while following Ritualz...

Can anybody enumerate a single Ritual which has any logical explanation... besidez that... my parentz do it, so do I? Rolling Eyes

I doubt there is any explanation? Then why do we follow them blindly... to please the Almighty... Is he happy with all this Ritualismz ? What do you think... Question

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Wow... I'm on the opposite end of your spectrum. Smile

I could name a dozen rituals that serve that purpose of bringing someone closer to religious feelings. Drinking wine, for example or ingesting a drug to change your perception.

Spinning or dancing, humming or chanting, praying, listening to a drum in order to center yourself.

Ritualized form or mass in an architectural wonder, where your eyes nearly pop out in awe and you feel amazingly humble.

The smells of candles and incense that please the senses and take you to a new realm of delight.

The oldest pagan forms and the newest like Ba'hai utilize these and I'd seriously argue (in only the nicest way) it isn't a hindrance unless you make it one. :wink:

How does this interfere with a one true lord?

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IDEAL Singh wrote:

I think Ritaulizm is a Hindrance to our eternal Goal i.e. to meet the one True Lord... It is just like that in the ancient ignorant people used to worship just about anything owing to lack of knowldege or logicz... They did it please rain godz, sun for light, fire... just about anything...

We still follow these Ritualz coz thatz what our earliar generationz did... We seem not to use any logic while following Ritualz...

Can anybody enumerate a single Ritual which has any logical explanation... besides that... my parentz do it, so do I? I doubt there is any explanation? Then why do we do it... to please the Almighty... Is he happy with all this Ritualism ? What do you think... ?

can you name a single religious belief that has an logical explanation? besides "my parents/pastor/priest told me so."
rituals have religious explanations. whether you believe they are logical is up to you.

and you forgot to replace the last 's' in your post with a 'z'. you are no longer coolz.

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Hey Do not looze your coolz...

Fear iz another reason why we follow these Ritualz... az we are afraid that if we do not follow them we may be doomed... by whom ?

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Piffka wrote:

Wow... I'm on the opposite end of your spectrum.

I could name a dozen rituals that serve that purpose of bringing someone closer to religious feelings. Drinking wine, for example or ingesting a drug to change your perception.

How going out of sortz by drinking bringz you closer to Religiouz Feelingz.

Spinning or dancing, humming or chanting, praying, listening to a drum in order to center yourself.

Agreed.. but these are NOT Ritualz... this is way of self expression... A more of Art...

Ritualized form or mass in an architectural wonder, where your eyes nearly pop out in awe and you feel amazingly humble.

Do not form a Ritual... a form of self expression by an Artist...

The smells of candles and incense that please the senses and take you to a new realm of delight.

Just your perception... nothing more...

The oldest pagan forms and the newest like Ba'hai utilize these and I'd seriously argue (in only the nicest way) it isn't a hindrance unless you make it one. :wink:

Agreed...

How does this interfere with a one true lord?

Well there are more thingz to do than doing such activities... Doing community service... servinging the Humanity... Tolerance for people with other faith... Eqaulity... Acceptance... Helping the destitute... Such activities are more important to Lord than just awing or wondering...

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IDEAL Singh wrote:

Well there are more thingz to do than doing such activities... Doing community service... servinging the Humanity... Tolerance for people with other faith... Eqaulity... Acceptance... Helping the destitute... Such activities are more important to Lord than just awing or wondering...

You've confused religious rituals with acts. Having tolerance, helping the destitute, etc.. may be acts encouraged by a person's religion but they don't convey the ideas/concepts of your particular religion to others.

How does doing community service demonstrate a specific religious ideal or convey a specific religious message?

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Why Not ? Serving the Humanity should be our Relgion...? What would the benefit of having different sets of Ritualz by each Religion... when the aim is the same... One Relgion encourages drinking wine... the other condemz it... like wise... So, What is the point in followng these Ritualz ? When they are self conflicting ?

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IDEAL Singh wrote:

Hey Do not looze your coolz...

Fear iz another reason why we follow these Ritualz... az we are afraid that if we do not follow them we may be doomed... by whom ?

By the religious hierarchy who establishes/police/preside over the rituals. Partaking in the Lord's Supper is a very serious ritual in my church. If someone sees that you do not partake, they assume you have a really dastardly sin, not confessed, or that you are a 'doubter'.

We also stand and read writings in the back of the hymnal. For some reason (call me crazy) I like to think about something before I stand up and read it like an automaton. But, if someone spies me not participating in this ritual, I am suspect.

I think rituals are bad, because they are done by rote, without thinking, without question. I can't think of any ritual that is beneficial.

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I notice you didn't address the question asked....

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It is hard to reply to postings made within a quote, so I won't. You made me laugh, you are willing to call rituals self-expression when it works for you and not when you don't agree with it. Being open and available for additional information -- not closed within your religion would be part of an ideal religion to me.

Since you don't determine your beliefs based on perception then you are revering a revealed truth, I think. The ability to provide good works is fine and done by many people, not just ones hoping to please your Lord. It is a secular form to show your intact humanity, not (to me) a religious form hoping for a pat on the head by God.

How does it go... the Karma of good works is only effective when it is not done to please, but only to be truly helpful.

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Sofia wrote:

I think rituals are bad, because they are done by rote, without thinking, without question. I can't think of any ritual that is beneficial.

Is this the fault of the ritual or the fault of the people practicing them?

I can think of plenty of rituals that are beneficial. Bathing is one that helps a lot. Very Happy

Washing dishes after you eat is a good one too. Putting garbage in trash collection trucks keeps down the rat population.

A ritual is only as useful as people make it. If people subvert it then it can become a powerful tool for the negative.

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LOL, fishin'.
I don't look at bathing as a ritual, but an act to accomplish a specific goal.

What specific goals do rituals at church seek to accomplish?

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Sofia wrote:

What specific goals do rituals at church seek to accomplish?

Well, as I said earlier, I think most of them were intended to be a way to pass on the culture/'corporate knowledge" of the religion. I know most Christian religions have some form of "offering" during their services. This is supposed to be a symbolic, recurring reminder of the Last Supper - a staging (or re-enactment) of the singular event crucial to the Christian religions - the crucifixon of Christ.

Most people probably wouldn't consider bathing to be a ritual but then I've known some people that make a BIG ritual out of it. Bubble bath, a few scented candles, a little wine or champagne.. ooo-la-la! Very Happy

All they'd need to do is add the religious connotation to it. (somthing besides moaning "Oh god! Ooooh God!" Razz

)

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In the Catholic mass every single act is a ritual from the entrance of the priest, acolytes, etc. to their exit. The lighting of the candle reminds people that the Holy Spirit has been called upon. The mass recitation of the Apostle's Creed tells everybody each time what exactly they are agreeing to believe and which they believe is the same creed (though in the vernacular) of what the original Christians spoke and believed. That provides stability. It goes on and on.

Ritual is important and frankly, I think pomp can be, too (witness all the little girls who want big weddings). It is a mighty force, psychologically and sociologically speaking.

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Piffka wrote:

Ritual is important and frankly, I think pomp can be, too (witness all the little girls who want big weddings). It is a mighty force, psychologically and sociologically speaking.

that gives me an idea for another criterion for the ideal religion.
25. polygomy!
26. promotion of safe free sex.

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Singh,

I am afraid that any discussion of religion must first define "religion".

Is religion a personal philosophy, relating to how one should behave and conduct ones affairs with his fellow man?

Is religion a personal philosophy, relating as to how to avoid death?

Is religion a method of securing benefits to the group, tribe, or nation to which he belongs?

Is religion a method of securing a paradise for eternity?

Is religion a way of securing the sustenance required for existence?

Is religion a way of answering the so called "ultimate questions"-- Why am I here. Why must we work-suffer. Where did we come from? Where are we going. Why must I die?

Historically religion has been shown to be a very poor friend to humanity, as a whole. It has been friendly only to those specific subgroups which have adopted a specific, but widely varying lifestyle.

Consider the Hindi and Moslems, Jews and Moslems, Catholics and Protestants, Protestants and Spiritists, Catholics and Muslims, Jews and Lutherans, Athiests and Catholics.

If religion is not the single most divisive threat to humanities progress ever known, I'd hate to know what is. Purple colored Supremicist Aliens from Alpha Centauri I'd imagine may be worse.

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fishin' wrote:

How does doing community service demonstrate a specific religious ideal or convey a specific religious message?

What else a Religion expectz from its followers... Then What does a Religion convey to you ?

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Sofia wrote:

I think rituals are bad, because they are done by rote, without thinking, without question. I can't think of any ritual that is beneficial.

I think that makez sense...

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Piffka wrote:

It is hard to reply to postings made within a quote, so I won't. You made me laugh, you are willing to call rituals self-expression when it works for you and not when you don't agree with it.

What is so hard to reply... No body is stopping you from expressing yourself.... thatz nice that I made you laugh... but if you read my postz deligently you would tend to agree with me... Does drinking wine convey any form of art or expression to you...

Being open and available for additional information -- not closed within your religion would be part of an ideal religion to me.

Thatz what we are discussing... Open and free your Religiona and yourself from the confinement of Ritualizm...

Since you don't determine your beliefs based on perception then you are revering a revealed truth, I think. The ability to provide good works is fine and done by many people, not just ones hoping to please your Lord.

I think you can put some more light this before I can make a comment on your observation...

It is a secular form to show your intact humanity, not (to me) a religious form hoping for a pat on the head by God.

How are you showing your intact humanity by following Ritaulz... Enlighten me plz... If you dont follow Ritualizm for hoping for a pat on the head by God, then why you are doing it?
How does it go... the Karma of good works is only effective when it is not done to please, but only to be truly helpful.

So, by following Ritaulz you are helping whom?

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fishin' wrote:

Is this the fault of the ritual or the fault of the people practicing them?

I dunno.

I can think of plenty of rituals that are beneficial. Bathing is one that helps a lot. Washing dishes after you eat is a good one too. Putting garbage in trash collection trucks keeps down the rat population.

Now you are confusing Ritualizm... Ritualz are the specific activities that are specifically done to distinguish a personz Religion... You mean to say that you only take bath when you go to your place of worship... or wach dishes only when you are at place of worship... clean up your surroudings only when you are going a place of worship... if no then this is not Ritualizm..

A ritual is only as useful as people make it. If people subvert it then it can become a powerful tool for the negative.

Discussed above..

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