23
   

LAW VS. MORAL VALUES

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 02:33 pm
@The Pentacle Queen,
The Pentacle Queen wrote:

Quote:
Sorry. I was a kid in the 50's and there were no inhibitions of any kind on reporting anybody who was behaving improperly. And we did. And I think we had a much better sense of what was right and wrong too, and we were perhaps more naturally inhibited from getting into compromising situations just because of a strong sense of right and wrong. Prudish? Perhaps some of it was. But in a day where abortion was mostly illegal and the schools would never pass out (or even discuss) condoms, teenage pregnancy and/or STD was extremely rare and, as I said, we were safe.


Whose version of knowledge is this?
You're just citing the ideology.
Fair enought to say you were safe, but if sexuality was a taboo and never talked about, then how do you know 'we' were safe?



Sexuality was neither taboo nor kept hush hush. We kids talked about sex in my day every bit as much as now. We just didn't see sex outside of marriage as something to covet or brag about. Difference of the times. (That's probably why women generally married much younger then than they do now.)
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 02:47 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
We just didn't see sex outside of marriage as something to covet or brag about. Difference of the times. (That's probably why women generally married much younger then than they do now.)


Quote:
Social customs vary, in other words, and they’ve always varied over time and from place to place. People have a large bias toward the status quo, so if customs today are different from customs a generation ago that seems alarming. But “traditional” age at first marriage only arose in the west in the 19th century. For about two hundred years before that, it was falling, and the current situation in the United States resembles what Gregory Clark describes in 17th century England.
Source: Historical Variation in Age at First Marriage
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 02:58 pm
Quote:
But in a day where abortion was mostly illegal and the schools would never pass out (or even discuss) condoms, teenage pregnancy and/or STD was extremely rare and, as I said, we were safe.


I checked on Foxfyre's STD claim... and interestingly enough, the rate of most STDs has gone down consistently and significantly since 1950. In 1950 the rate for syphilis was 146 per 10,000, by 2003 that rate was decreased to 12 per 10,000 (a significant drop by any measure).

I also wonder if Foxfyre understands that condoms were an important part of lowering the rate of STDs from their relatively high rate of occurrence in the 1950s.

Incidently, the suicide rate has also dropped since the 1950s.

ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 03:01 pm
I also want to point out that if the 1950s weren't so screwed up... we wouldn't have had the 1960s.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 03:20 pm
@ebrown p,
I'm thinking that FDR and Harry Truman led america with strong moral values and then came Nixon/Agnew.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 03:42 pm
@ebrown p,
I wonder if you realize that I was talking about teenagers and not the population as a whole? Perhaps you could post statistics re unmarried teens in the 1950's vs unmarried teens now? You said you checked on it, so you must have a link to the data.

Otherwise STD is a mixed bad. While it is true that there were high incidents of STD in the 1950's--I read once that this was largely due to servicemen being exposed during WWII and Korea, but that is working strictly from memory--it is also true that the AIDs scare that first surfaced in the 1970's started bringing STD rates sharply down. But in recent years they have returned to something approximating pre-AIDs levels.

http://www.cdc.gov/

Quote:
Pre 1960's: Syphilis and Gonorrhea were the only major STDs
1976: Chlamydia first recognized
1981: AIDS identified
1982: Herpes became very prevalent
1992: PID or Pelvic Inflammatory Disease recognized
1996: HPV or Human Papilloma Virus recognized as the cause of 90% of all cervical cancer, and is the reason for yearly PAP smears.
1980-present: 8 NEW diseases identified including HIV

* It is important to note that this is not just a case of medical science diagnosing what has existed all along. These are NEW diseases, caused by sexual activity with multiple partners. Viruses continue to mutate and multiply, all the while becoming more resistant to treatment.
http://www.carenetabq.org/stds.shtml


Quote:
Major STD rates highest in women and minorities; decade's trend continues,
CDC reports
OB/GYN News
Feb 1, 2009 by Jeff Evans

The rates of three major sexually transmitted diseases in the United States in 2007 continued to follow a nearly decade-long climb that has disproportionately affected minorities and women, according to a report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

These trends in infection rates of chlamydia, gonorrhea, and syphilis are "not new, but the fact that they are continuing at such a dramatic level is really the major area of concern," said Dr. John M. Douglas Jr., director of the division of STD prevention at the CDC. All three STDs have long-standing federally funded control programs.
http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/obnews/article/PIIS0029743709700254/fulltext



Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 03:49 pm
@Foxfyre,
Correction: AIDS scare early 1980's......but other new STD identified had made folks more cautious before then. Schools were NOT passing out condoms during the time that the cases dropped off the most.

It is also worth mentioning that a mutually monogamous relationship with an uninffected partner results in no STD infections of any kind whether or not a condom is utilized. We were taught that in health class in the 1950's.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 06:00 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre, you seem to be obsessed with condoms. I think I was part of the first generation of kids who were able to get condoms from school nurses. In my opinion this was a very good thing.

Of course monogamy works... but there really is no way to be absolutely sure you are in a monogamous relationship, especially when you are a teenager. This is why I feel strongly we should encourage kids to use condoms no matter how monogamous they think their relationship is.



Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 06:01 pm
@ebrown p,
I'm obssessed with condoms? Excuse me, but it is you who keeps bringing them up.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 06:05 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Prudish? Perhaps some of it was. But in a day where abortion was mostly illegal and the schools would never pass out (or even discuss) condoms, teenage pregnancy and/or STD was extremely rare and, as I said, we were safe.


Foxfyre wrote:
Correction: AIDS scare early 1980's......but other new STD identified had made folks more cautious before then. Schools were NOT passing out condoms during the time that the cases dropped off the most.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 06:05 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
I wonder if you realize that I was talking about teenagers and not the population as a whole? Perhaps you could post statistics re unmarried teens in the 1950's vs unmarried teens now?


you're the one claiming to have been talking about teenagers - perhaps you could post the source of your information
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 06:11 pm
@ehBeth,
I have been talking about my experience as a teenager. That isn't sufficient for some, however, who are certain that I am fabricating my experience. Therefore it is incumbant on THEM to show that things were not as I experienced them if they persist making a big deal out of that.

Walter Williams, in the article I started the thread with, agrees with my experience. So if you guys think we didn't experience what we know we experienced, YOU prove it.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 06:11 pm
@ehBeth,
Foxfyre... there is also the real possibility that you were odd.

While you were experimenting with Ginger Ale... most of your classmates were engaging in the enjoyable experimentation with sex that has always been part of a normal healthy adolescence.

Quite the pity.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 06:12 pm
@ebrown p,
More's the pity that you weren't privileged to experience a lifestyle like we experienced. I don't think my classmates were having sex while we imbibed the Ginger Ale. I would have noticed.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 06:17 pm
@Foxfyre,
... unless it wasn't really Ginger Ale.
ehBeth
 
  4  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 06:26 pm
@ebrown p,
The Myth of Rampant Teenage Promiscuity

Quote:
One reason people misconstrue teenage sexual behavior is that the system of dating and relationships has changed significantly. In the first half of the 20th century, dating was planned and structured " and a date might or might not lead to a physical relationship. In recent decades, that pattern has largely been replaced by casual gatherings of teenagers.

In that setting, teenagers often say they “fool around,” and in a reversal of the old pattern, such an encounter may or may not lead to regular dating. The shift began around the late 1960s, said Dr. Bogle, who explored the trend in her book “Hooking Up: Sex, Dating and Relationships on Campus” (N.Y.U. Press, 2008).

<snip>

The reality is that the rate of teenage childbearing has fallen steeply since the late 1950s. The declines aren’t explained by the increasing availability of abortions: teenage abortion rates have also dropped.



good source links in the article
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 06:30 pm
@ebrown p,
Quote:
.. unless it wasn't really Ginger Ale


This is outrageous behavior....a person reports their life experience and you turn around and call them a liar, as if you have any way to know. The most you can say is that your life experience does not mesh with the report. I have seen a lot of rude behaviour and broken logic on a2k, but this is a new low.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 08:01 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
More's the pity that you weren't privileged to experience a lifestyle like we experienced. I don't think my classmates were having sex while we imbibed the Ginger Ale. I would have noticed.

Pardon me if I don't believe that you have X-ray vision... or that your powers of observation are all that reliable.

All you can do is discuss your personal, anecdotal, experiences, which is not a reliable source for most of the rest of us.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 08:04 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
you turn around and call them a liar, as if you have any way to know


it's likely based on the ever-popular anecdotal evidence
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2009 10:01 pm
His article entitled "Law vs Moral Values"
Quote:
Our increased reliance on laws to regulate behavior is a measure of how uncivilized we've become.


It's a wonder Williams can see anything with all the spinning he is doing..
His article entitled "Empathy vs Law"
Quote:

The biggest danger in appointing the wrong people to the Supreme Court is not just in how they might vote on some particular issues " whether private property, abortion, or whatever. The biggest danger is that they will undermine or destroy the very concept of the rule of law " what has been called “a government of laws and not of men.”

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MzM0MzdiMTVhZTgxNmE5ZGYzZWY3M2UyNDQ3NjI3NWY=

We certainly wouldn't want laws to control our country, or would we?
 

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