will/would

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"I would be happy to see Umno doing well and I would be happy if the Umno people are very happy. But if they all cry, then perhaps I will follow them and cry, but I don't believe I will," he quipped.

What I don't understand is why 'would' is used with 'will' in the dialogue?
Thanks.

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@tanguatlay,

I would be happy to see Umno doing well

The speaker is talking about a hypothetical future situation, namely how he would feel if Umno does well, so he uses "would".

and I would be happy if the Umno people are very happy.

Here he makes a mistake. He uses "would" to describe how he will feel if the Umno people are happy (concrete event in the future.) He should have used "will". Either "will" ... "are" or "would" ... "were".

But if they all cry, then perhaps I will follow them and cry, but I don't believe I will," he quipped.

By this time, he has recollected the rule and uses "will" correctly to describe his action if they all cry (concrete event in the future).

"cry" ... "will"
"cried" ... "would"

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@contrex,

Thanks, Contrex.

To make sure I understand you correctly, I'm reproducing below the sentence with what I gather from your explanation. I hope the sentence is now grammatically correct.

"I would be happy to see Umno doing well and I will be happy if the Umno people are very happy. But if they all cry, then perhaps I will follow them and cry, but I don't believe I will," he quipped.

1 Reply

@tanguatlay,

From the sentence which you have now posted, it appears that you understand me correctly.

Personally I would omit the word "very" from the first sentence.

1 Reply

@contrex,

Thanks, Contrex.

I agree with you that the word 'very' is not needed.

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@contrex,

Quote:

Here he makes a mistake. He uses "would" to describe how he will feel if the Umno people are happy (concrete event in the future.) He should have used "will". Either "will" ... "are" or "would" ... "were".

This is not how English actually works. It's clear that there are mixed conditionals in English.

Quote:

The speaker is talking about a hypothetical future situation, namely how he would feel if Umno does well, so he uses "would".

It isn't absolutely necessary that hypothetical situations be described solely by Historical past tense modals.

"If I go, I will try the pizza" may actually describe a more hypothetical situation than "If I went, I would try the pizza".

"If I go, I might try the pizza."

"If I go, I would try the pizza."

"If I went, I may try the pizza."

A hypothetical becomes a hypothetical by the use of 'if'. The modal verb that follows is a reflection of the speaker's level of certainty, not necessarily an indication of irrealis/unreal.

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

"If I went, I may try the pizza."

'went' is a past tense form, while 'may' is the present. Why isn't 'might' used to be consistent with 'went'?

Many thanks.

3 Replies

@tanguatlay,

Tanguatlay wrote:

'went' is a past tense form, while 'may' is the present. Why isn't 'might' used to be consistent with 'went'?

"Might" should be used. I suggest that you disregard JTT's advice on this matter. Of course, the choice is yours.

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@tanguatlay,

Quote:

'went' is a past tense form, while 'may' is the present. Why isn't 'might' used to be consistent with 'went'?

That's simply not the case for modern day English, Ms Tan. We had a long long debate on this very issue in a thread started by Yoon Liang [sp??]. I'll see if I can find it.

In that thread, Contrex was unable to make one sentence wherein 'might' was used as a past tense. The reason for this of course, is that modals have no tense. in modern English they are tenseless. In earlier forms of English, they did have tense but nowadays, they most surely don't.

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@JTT,

In contemporary BrE, you can do this:

Future: I will ask the teacher if I may be excused.
Present: I am asking the teacher if I might be excused.
Past: I asked the teacher if I might be excused.

I seem to remember writing that, but JTT would not have it. Nevertheless, it is so. He or she does seem to be fond of making rulings, but submits little evidence for his or her assertions.

1 Reply

@contrex,

Correction:

may (permission)

I asked the teacher if I might be excused.
I ask the teacher if I may be excused.
I will ask the teacher if I may be excused.

may (possibility)

I may go out tonight if I can borrow a coat to wear.
I might have gone out last night if I had been able to borrow a coat to wear.

1 Reply

@contrex,

Quote:

contrex (Post 3610165)
Correction:

may (permission)

I asked the teacher if I might be excused.
I ask the teacher if I may be excused.
I will ask the teacher if I may be excused.

Contrex, I'm not at all sure that you understand the concept of direct and indirect/reported speech

may (possibility)

I may go out tonight if I can borrow a coat to wear.
I might have gone out last night if I had been able to borrow a coat to wear.

An example of 'might' being used as a reporting verb for 'may', Contrex. 'might' is of course, one of the choices we have to report. But you're confusing 'might's job as a reporting verb and mistakenly thinking that it is acting as the past tense of 'may'. It clearly is not.

John: [spoken at this moment] I may go out tonight.

John: [the next day] *I might go out last night.*

OR even

John: [the next day] *I might have gone out last night.*

[* - denotes ungrammatical for the situation]

'might as a reporting verb, yes, Contrex. 'might as a past tense of 'may', most assuredly not.

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@tanguatlay,

Quote:

'went' is a past tense form, while 'may' is the present. Why isn't 'might' used to be consistent with 'went'?

You seemed to understand the role of might and may in this thread, Ms Tan.

http://able2know.org/topic/129902-1

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