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Which was a more defining moment in U.S. History, 9/11 or...

 
 
New Haven
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 11:22 pm
Quote:
What was it...1936? Or 1938...I can not remember exactly...probably the later.


Dec. 7, 1941
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New Haven
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 11:28 pm
Pearl Harbor Raid, 7 December 1941 --

Overview and Special Image Selection

The 7 December 1941 Japanese raid on Pearl Harbor was one of the great defining moments in history. A single carefully-planned and well-executed stroke removed the United States Navy's battleship force as a possible threat to the Japanese Empire's southward expansion. America, unprepared and now considerably weakened, was abruptly brought into the Second World War as a full combatant.

Eighteen months earlier, President Franklin D. Roosevelt had transferred the United States Fleet to Pearl Harbor as a presumed deterrent to Japanese agression. The Japanese military, deeply engaged in the seemingly endless war it had started against China in mid-1937, badly needed oil and other raw materials. Commercial access to these was gradually curtailed as the conquests continued. In July 1941 the Western powers effectively halted trade with Japan. From then on, as the desperate Japanese schemed to seize the oil and mineral-rich East Indies and Southeast Asia, a Pacific war was virtually inevitable.

By late November 1941, with peace negotiations clearly approaching an end, informed U.S. officials (and they were well-informed, they believed, through an ability to read Japan's diplomatic codes) fully expected a Japanese attack into the Indies, Malaya and probably the Philippines. Completely unanticipated was the prospect that Japan would attack east, as well.

The U.S. Fleet's Pearl Harbor base was reachable by an aircraft carrier force, and the Japanese Navy secretly sent one across the Pacific with greater aerial striking power than had ever been seen on the World's oceans. Its planes hit just before 8AM on 7 December. Within a short time five of eight battleships at Pearl Harbor were sunk or sinking, with the rest damaged. Several other ships and most Hawaii-based combat planes were also knocked out and over 2400 Americans were dead. Soon after, Japanese planes eliminated much of the American air force in the Philippines, and a Japanese Army was ashore in Malaya.

These great Japanese successes, achieved without prior diplomatic formalities, shocked and enraged the previously divided American people into a level of purposeful unity hardly seen before or since. For the next five months, until the Battle of the Coral Sea in early May, Japan's far-reaching offensives proceeded untroubled by fruitful opposition. American and Allied morale suffered accordingly. Under normal political circumstances, an accomodation might have been considered.

However, the memory of the "sneak attack" on Pearl Harbor fueled a determination to fight on. Once the Battle of Midway in early June 1942 had eliminated much of Japan's striking power, that same memory stoked a relentless war to reverse her conquests and remove her, and her German and Italian allies, as future threats to World peace.

This page features a historical overview and special image selection on the Pearl Harbor raid, chosen from the more comprehensive coverage featured in the following pages, and those linked from them:
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 May, 2003 07:46 am
5PoF said
Quote:
Ok I mean awake in reference to WW2 where we were "awakened" to the fact that there is a problem in the world and we must help to deal with it.
Well, that's a pretty narrow definition of 'problem in the world', but it's not an untypical example of narrow American self interest. As we speak, for example, there are more children dying in Africa EACH DAY from malaria than died on Sept 11 (note, that is JUST children). Or, we could mention the mass slaughter of folks in East Timor, by a government the US supported. No problem there?

Quote:
This time we are equally justified as we were when against the Nazis, but this time we are mostly alone, the rest of the world sees terrorism as laughable,
Hardly. Removing Iraq from Kuwait would be a closer example of moving against Germany (which, of course, the US took a long long time in worrying about much - 'it ain't us').

As to the rest of the world seeing terrorism as 'laughable'...you conveniently forget that the rest of the world was quite behind the US after 9-11, even supporting action in Afghanistan, and supporting heavy constraints on Iraq post-war. But the unilateral pre-emptive attack on Iraq, with the scurrilous and deceitful justifications for this, was what others thought 'laughable'.
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Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 May, 2003 01:11 pm
Excellent points, as usual, Blatham.

I would add that the rest of the world hardly finds terrorism or the threat of terrorism "laughable." Russia is certainly quite concerned about another attack by Chechin rebels, for example. Germany has had its hands full of neo-Nazis ever since the reunification of East and West. There was a time, not all that long ago, that France was a constant target of Algerians. And in Spain, Basque separatists cause incessant difficulties for King Carlos and his government. Shall I go on about Central America? Nahhh. 'Nuff said.
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5PoF
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 May, 2003 01:29 am
The rest of the world does find terrorism laughable, it is not even on the agenda of the UN.

The "malaria" killing african children, well don't you know Malaria is not curable...not much that can be done to those children, and there isn't enough medicine to treat all of africa for malaria.

Africa is too much an "uncivilized" location for modern peoples which move around a lot.

They cut into their forests and bring back deadly diseases, they have depleted their soil of which most is alkaline anyways, and makes it very hard to grow decent supplies of food.

The best bet for Africans is to leave that continent.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 May, 2003 01:32 am
For the individual that may be the best bet, but for the masses? Who is accepting immigration en masse these days?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 May, 2003 01:39 am
I suppose if global warming continues we may soon be opening up Antarctica, "The garden continent".
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5PoF
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 May, 2003 03:49 am
No such luck lol, nature has the last laugh, as always.

The Gulf Stream is a convection current, if ice melts then the salinity of the water drops and the density thus drops, that convection current fails.

Without it France would be as frozen as the New Foundland.

http://www.discover.com/sept_02/featice.html

http://www.whoi.edu/science/PO/dept/

http://www.geo.arizona.edu/geo2xx/geo212_2/LemleyIceAge.pdf (haven't read this one it's pdf and my comp is too slow and crappy to bother with it).

Basically though, it boils down to "Is the gulf stream the only factor?"

One scientist does speak out against it, well not one, but one as the spokesman surely others agree, that atmospheric factors also warm Europe and the rest of the north.

But most agree with out the Gulf Stream that too much cooling will happen and a new ice age begin.

Ice Ages are, note...ARE...a new thing to the planet earth. How new? Well since panama joined with South America cutting off the pacific from the mid-Atlantic.

Now what does THAT have to do with anything? It is when the pacific was cut off from the gulf, that the Gulf Stream began.

So it does seem that Ice Ages have some connection to the Gulf Stream.

We better hope global warming won't lead to what most think it will, or most of America will become a Glacier.
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zman136
 
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Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 10:42 pm
what kind of crabassed question is this. there is no question, Pearl Harbor. It was a direct attack on America, and America alone. 9/11 was an attack on many nations(hints the name WORLD trade center). It was an attack on Isreal as well. The only difference being- it took place on american soil. SO quit wasting time with these idiotic questions. Ask better questions. Ex. What is the greatest civilzation of all time. The answer is the Mongols.
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BillW
 
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Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 12:03 pm
Please define "crabassed"!
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 02:15 pm
crabassed = indication of having an ass like a crab, also indicates extremely low intellect on the part of the one who uses it. :-)
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steissd
 
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Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 03:05 pm
CdeK wrote:
Which was a more defining moment in U.S. History, 9/11 or Pearl Harbor?
I say Pearl Harbor. WW2 is not comparable to Afghanistan.

World war cannot be reduced to Wehrmacht's Polish campaign either, but this is what it started with. Afghan campaign, IMO, was the first one in the series of campaigns of the WWIV. WWIII has already ended, and the USA has won it, this was a Cold War (not so cold as it might seem, however; there were lots of regional military conflicts where the USSR and the USA were implicitly involved).
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 04:11 pm
Sorry, but I'm more interested in what was the most defining moment of "my" life. Wink c.i.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 04:15 pm
Sorry, but I'm more interested if I'm going to get any tonight. Smile
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 04:30 pm
crab?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 04:31 pm
er ok billw sorry

it just seemed to follow after what craven said

so get any what exactly?
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 04:32 pm
She better be clean - Smile
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 06:20 pm
"Clean" denotes alot of different things. Can you be more specific? c.i.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 01:46 pm
No crabs! Twisted Evil
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 03:20 pm
Well I like crab; in fact most forms of crustaceans and sea food.

Except swimmin nekkid with sharks
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