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Which was a more defining moment in U.S. History, 9/11 or...

 
 
CountZero
 
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Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2002 01:28 pm
Pearl Harbor.
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BillW
 
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Reply Tue 26 Nov, 2002 02:51 pm
Which was a more defining moment in U.S. History?

My birth - anyway, this is true for me!
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Tommy
 
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Reply Tue 26 Nov, 2002 04:52 pm
I voted for "9/ll" because:

I think that the Second World War, though not actually a World War at this time, could have been expected to escalate given the state of Europe and Germany's pact with Japan. It is possible that an attack might have been expected on US Possessions somewhere. The fact that it was Pearl Harbour brought it home that much more to the US.

Though not as much as that when the attack on the Twin Towers occurred. The United States had become quite blase - indeed so too was the UK and Western Europe - in its feeling of near-omnipotence. After all it was a super-power and this attack engendered a feeling of helplessness that something like this could happen in the heart of the US. I think it was a greater shock than Pearl Harbour.
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Wed 27 Nov, 2002 09:38 am
Adding another thought on this subject: We will not know when we have won this current war, because it is impossible to identify all the terrorists of the future, and they can attack civilian sights at any time. With the development of smaller, but more damaging weapons of mass destruction, we will all be at the mercy of being at the right place at the right time. As GWBush has stated, this is going to be a very long war - and I agree. c.i.
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blatham
 
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Reply Wed 27 Nov, 2002 10:39 am
craven

I agree with those above who hold that it is not possible yet to know the consequences of 9-11. How long this 'war' might last and what shape and scope it might take is yet to be determined. At this point, surely there is no comparison.

Unfortunately, the future could go very badly indeed if, as clearly might happen, extremism in the Muslim world flourishes (there's a relevant editorial by Rushdie in the NY Times this morning) and many more attacks are perpetrated, which in turn lead to our side going nutty, then the conflict could last generations and lead to the sort of police state bunker mentality which we possibly see signs of already.

No such future is inevitable. But what the US (moreso than anyone else) does right now will be critical. I wish I were more confident that this administration won't do precisely the wrong things (like support Likud policies for votes and 'stability', and continue to allow oil interests to fashion terms of the equation, eg Saudi Arabia) but I'm not at all confident about that.

We know, or we ought to now as this administration has fessed up to it, that US policy has turned a corner and that a fundamental foreign policy goal now is the repression of any other state which might rise up to challenge US hegemony. This isn't a great way to make friends and influence neighbors.

We know now that this administration designed the termination of Sadaam in Iraq as early as 92. The documents are easily available not just to us, but to the rest of the world. US protestations that Sadaam has 'flaunted Security Council resolutions' is true. But inconsistent, as Israel has as well. That doesn't land very well in the Muslim world, justifiably.

There will likely be responses to what I've said above of the 'who better than us?' variety. That arrogance and blindness to hubris is also quite evident to the rest of the world.

So, I'm not confident.
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Setanta
 
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Reply Wed 27 Nov, 2002 10:44 am
Neither am I, Boss--especially since this is so obviously a "grudge-match" for Cheney and company. It took many long years for the wild-eyed Qudafi to settle into a reasonable old age--from 1969 to 1996 at the least. Idiots like Cheney and Rumsfeld are willing to put our nation, and the rest of the world, at risk simply to gratify their own testosterone-influenced, adolescent egos. Those people make me sick, and they make me fear for the future.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Nov, 2002 10:49 am
Setanta

Yes. In contrast, oval office sex seems quaint, romantic, and life-affirming.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Nov, 2002 10:50 am
Sex frightens George--since he's always alone . . .
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blatham
 
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Reply Wed 27 Nov, 2002 11:13 am
It frightens me too.
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JoanneDorel
 
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Reply Wed 27 Nov, 2002 12:32 pm
We are still to close to 9/11 to know the effects it will have on our world. Of course if 9/11 it leads us into WWIII then that event will equal Pearl Harbor as a defining point in our history. But I cannot imagine 9/11 surpassing Pearl Harbor as a defining moment. And of course in my personal life the Gulf of Tonkin incident which led to sending our military was the most historical defining moment in my life as it happened to affect my life drastically.

These two events, Pearl Harbor and 9/11 do have similarities in that some have accused FDR of some orchestrating or allowing Pearl Harbor to happen for an excuse to enter the war in Asia and Europe just as some today accuse President Bush and friends of allowing 9/11 to happen so they could invade Iraq. Neither of these to theories have any historical validity for me nor do the accusations that LBJ created and used the Gulf of Tonkin incident as an excuse to widen the Viet Nam war. And what about General McArthur's theory that we had to take Korea or else the Russians would rule there.

War seems to be an unavoidable side effect of civilization. Since the beginning of time the outcome of violence and war has defined World History.
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Tommy
 
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Reply Wed 27 Nov, 2002 01:03 pm
There will always be conspiracists and their theories and takes on what was and what might have been. The fact that the attack on Pearl Harbour had a recognizable and geographically situated enemy allowed the American people to visualise a final defeat on their enemy, whereas the the 9/11 attack came out of nowhere by an enemy that had no known geographical base.
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2002 09:01 pm
Tommy, According to the media, the majority of the 9-11 attackers were from Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, they have a huge oil reserve..... c.i.
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Tommy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 02:35 pm
And Japan had none!
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BillW
 
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Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 02:42 pm
Australia had 3 (Ithink).
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5PoF
 
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Reply Thu 8 May, 2003 06:34 pm
9/11 by far.

Because of 9/11 and Bush we are actively trying to destroy terrorism at its roots, which greatly spares much of our own freedoms from the butchers, however his "Patriot Act" should be closely watched.

Because of 9/11 the UN is now proven to be little more then a big whinning baby, all things happening today are because of 9/11.

America is awake again, we are justified to be so, and just because there is no Nazi Germany on the other end, doesn't mean we have nothing to shoot at.

We just aren't using guns as much as before, but many notable things are happening.

The Euro is actively being pushed back by the Dollar Block, the UN has been muzzled (a good thing too), Several Anti-American nations showed their true colors (France, Germany, Russia, and China).

Terrorism, can be defeated.

I'm not sure where people got it in their head that terrorism is a grab a molotov cocktail and blow up your neighbor industry. It is a very expensive, and technological industry as a whole, sometimes just a simple bomb here or there, but for the most part, fairly organized.

Because of 9/11 and Bush (Not sure what things would be like with Gore), we are actively dismantling that organization.

Something that the yet to be charged and convicted "Traitor" Bill Clinton failed to do, for the purpose of making America popular, by sacrificing our Moral Integrity.

Cheap shot at Clinton? Nah...too bad no one is charging him though.
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dyslexia
 
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Reply Thu 8 May, 2003 06:43 pm
Quote:
The Euro is actively being pushed back by the Dollar Block

um well perhaps in your mind but the Euro has consistently gained value against the US Dollar since its inception
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blatham
 
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Reply Thu 8 May, 2003 11:44 pm
5PoF

Welcome to the forum.

I wish I could say I agree with your comments above, but I can't say that.

You say that "America is awake again". Could you point to the other periods in US history when she was awake.
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5PoF
 
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Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 09:48 pm
Ok I mean awake in reference to WW2 where we were "awakened" to the fact that there is a problem in the world and we must help to deal with it.

This time we are equally justified as we were when against the Nazis, but this time we are mostly alone, the rest of the world sees terrorism as laughable, but that is because all this time it has been primarily directed towards Israel, America abroad (now at home) and Britain with the IRA. Everything else is fairly obscure.

We've delt with terrorists before, bet you didn't know that...and you'll probably not guess who.

But it was the Barbary pirates who were attacking US Shipping off the Barbary coast (in africa? I think Tunisia).

Anyways, we were the only nation to tire of these attacks, Britain paid them off, France paid them off, we couldn't afford to so we sent over our Navy (at the time 6 ships) but they were good ships, not sure which ones but like the Constitution they were "Iron Clads", a new breed.

Fast and tough we kicked Barbary ass, no more barbary pirates.

Terrorism has been defeated through out the ages, and what is going on now is nothing new, Bush is doing the right thing by attacking the Terrorists outside our borders, for fighting it in the US, or trying to "prevent" it by any other means, will only utterly destroy our constitution.
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edgarblythe
 
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Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 10:35 pm
Pearl Harbor stands alone in that time. It was a more clearly defining moment. 911 occurred after the bombing of the World Trade Center, the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma, and numerous other incidents that make up a crazy quilt of moments molding the American paranoia.
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5PoF
 
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Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 11:03 pm
Well you seem to think Pearl Harbor stands alone...not based on the examples you give on why 9/11 doesn't.

Before Pearl Harbor there was Pearl Harbor...lol...only before the Japanese it was the Americans doing the bombing...what do I mean by this?

What was it...1936? Or 1938...I can not remember exactly...probably the later.

But the US invited many nations, including Japan, to a show of how Areial bombing can be effective in Naval Combat, and the tactics used were nearly mirrored by the Japanese several years later.
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