DEBATING THE HOLOCAUST: A New Look At Both Sides

Oh certainly, by all means . . . asshole is usually spelled as a single word, although it certainly is informal . . . you know, as in "Rabel is determined to show what an asshole he can be."

You are proof of that.

I see no reason to assume that anything about me proves that you are determined to prove that you are an asshole. But i am gratified to see that you acknowledge the truth of the statement.

You do realise, don't you that the man you are accusing of "bullshit" and "the big lie of the denial lobby" is the most eminent of all Holocaust historians, Raul Hilberg?

It's true that whoever did that site gets a gamma minus for public relations, and pretending to be a serious scientific body was ludicrous, but nevertheless the points they make do deserve reasonable consideration, despite being made so absurdly stridently.

For years the all Holocaust narratives have said that Treblinka poisoned people with the exhaust from diesel engines. You don't have to rely on the opinion of an Austrian Revisionist to find out that this is impossible. You can ask any motor mechanic or google it for yourself. Diesel exhaust contains almost no carbon monoxide. Though irritant and potentially carcinogenic, it is not toxic. They use diesel engines in mines for this reason. More recently non-revisionists have conceded this and say that they must have been petrol engines, but that is in contradiction with what has been said for 60 years. There is some discussion going on at present on the Wikipedia Talk pages for Treblinka and Sobibor.

The numbers of estimated dead given from the various dates for Auschwitz and Majdanek are given accurately. It was rather stupid of him to link to Revisionist sites for his reference as the figures are not contested and he could have found other more acceptable sources. The exception is the last line that screams THE TRUTH, which gives figures I have never seen before. The author he links to is not a polemic nutter but a serious Revisionist historian. But still a Revisionist, I agree.

While not everyone may agree that the Holocaust is being exploited for the benefit of Israel it is a point of view held by many people who have not questioned the Holocaust, the most prominent probably being Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein, who are both Jewish.

On the issue of burying then later digging up and burning on open fires the equivalent of the population of San Francisco in less than a year, it does raise questions as to whether it was feasible in the first place (in winter this place is covered with snow and temperatures go down to minus 20 Celsius), why they would have used such an fuel-inefficient method and if it could have been kept secret.

The reason for the ground radar survey was that if mass graves were dug, this would be evident from the disturbance to the subsoil. These people's results don't prove anything, but no official surveys have been done, which is rather odd as they could then prove the existence of these graves.

All this said, that famous "denier", David Irving puts the numbers killed at Treblinka even higher than do the official sources!

I would be interested to read this book as it is the only attempt I know of that has attempted to present in parallel the mainstream and Revisionist cases, though I believe the author is probably a Revisionist.

But that's the problem. There are not body counts of the people said to have been gassed. If there were Revisionists would not be able to question them.
And as for the Zyklon B, even Jean-Claude Pressac, who wrote the book on the Auschwitz gas chambers, said that less than 5% of it was used for killing people (the rest for deinfestation). So purchasing and inventory records for it don't tell us anything about what each batch was used for.

The photographic evidence of vast piles of bodies that were bulldozed into common graves by the Allies after the camps were liberated were evidence enough. Thousands and thousands of naked emaciated bodies whose bodies were "looted" for anything precious was indeniable.
The use of Prussic acid as a "fumigant" is ludicrous for anything except rodent kills and even then, a single small can is enough to do a large area of 100000sq ft.
Its a dangerous chemical that would just as easily kill the users in a fumigation mode. Its amazing that the Zyklon cannisters just fit the "shower Heads" at the camps.

The best records we have of the Holocaust is, by all accounts, the Nazi records themselves. They were meticulous at keeping notes and records.

Revisionists just count on the fact that civilized humans dont want to exhume all that horror when there is such a good documentation of the graves being filled both by the NAzis and the ALlies as they entered the camps. You dont believe all the photography? or was it touched up(something that Ahmedinejad hangs his hat on)

JESUS, am I a dipshit. I thought that this was JL. Iwas actually gonna PM him to question his sanity. Turns out its some new ARyan type

The only thing worth debating re: the Holocaust was
HOW many of the German people knew it was going on ?

I cannot agree with the above. There are many things to debate about the Holocaust, especially from a Jewish perspective. For example:
-Should Jews visit Germany, buy German cars, etc.?
-Did the Holocaust reflect a momentary oddity in mankind's humanity, or did it reflect a darker side of human nature that society should be aware of?
-Did the Holocaust, and the assistance by non-Germans in Nazi occupied Europe, prove that Jews should have their own country (aka, Zionist Israel)?
-Could the Holocaust have occurred without the two-thousand years of state and Church sponsored anti-Semitism?
-Did the Holocaust show that almost two-thousand years of Christianity's teachings were a failure, in that Germany had the highest culture in nineteenth century Europe by many standards.
-Did the Holocaust show that anti-Semitism is not plain vanilla, but can morph into an obsession that reflects a mental disorder?

Should I continue? Let us just say that for many Jews the Holocaust is not just an old movie that is not worth discussing anymore.

And, regarding whether Germans knew about the cause of the smell from the "smokestacks," or the cattle-cars rumbling here or there, may just be academic, since, for example, Catholic Germans knew that just at the end of the nineteenth century, Bismarck had been anti-Catholic. They were not about to question the Reich and put their own safety in jeopardy, in my opinion. The salient question, in my opinion, is what made Jews so "expendable" to so many in Europe? I do not believe it was a different religion. I believe it just reflects centuries of the culture having demonized Jews as outsiders, regardless of how long they had been in a country. In other words, I believe, if one's ancestors were not part of some pagan tribe that decided to make that country their own, one was just an outsider for ever after. In effect, I believe, the mentality of many Europeans were tribal, without tribal names reflecting an identity.

Sorry, I haven't been back since the last post.

You are quite right about the horrendous conditions in Belsen and the other Western camps at liberation, but they have nothing to do with the gassings which are supposed to have taken place in Poland. Literally no historian now believes what was said after the war about gassing in Germany itself.

What you are seeeing in Belsen etc, (and no one disputes this) is the last major typhus outbreak in Europe. That's why the bodies are so hideously thin. It has nothing to do with any gassings or exterminations. But of course the emotional impact was enormous and still is.

Sorry farmerman. You obviously know so much more about the gas chamber subject than Jean-Claude Pressac. </sarcasm>
Zyklon B was the trade name of an isecticide produced by the Degesch company. The only possible dispute is to whether it was also used to kill people, and I have expressed no opinion one way or the other on that.

If you know where there are such extensive records then please go out and find them. A lot of historians would be delighted to hear from you.

There is nothing to debate:

Major Evidence of the Holocaust 
> Nizkor Website 


http://www.nizkor.org/ 
> Testimony of Auschwitz Commandant Hoess 


 http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/h/hoess.rudolf.ferdinand/ftp.py?people/h/hoess.rudolf.ferdinand//hoess.statemen
> Statement by the American Historical Association: 


http://groups.google.com/group/alt.revisionism/msg/6bc3bf4f1df8fc08 
> The Avalon Project-Transcripts of the Nuremberg Trials 
> None of the defendants ever denied the exterminations 


http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/imt.htm#proc 
> Where Does the Six Million Number Come From 


http://groups.google.com/group/alt.revisionism/msg/73663db2f3555bfe 
> NOTE: The 4 million number for Auschwitz was a estimate, based on 
> faulty assumptions, compiled by Soviet forensic scientists in a hurry 
> for Stalin. It is not included in the six million computation. 


The Holocaust History Project 
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/body-disposal/ 
> Adolf Eichmann in His Own Words:He never denied the exterminations. 
> His sole defense was 
> that he was just following Orders: 


http://remember.org/eichmann/ownwords.htm 
> Dr Hoettl Speaks 


http://groups.google.com/group/alt.revisionism/msg/f701f5aa3ff24bf5?d... 
> The Einsatzgruppen 


http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/einsatzgruppen.html 
> Gas Chamber Links 


http://groups.google.com/group/alt.revisionism/msg/2306745faea77d78 
 Diary entry of Goebbels-The Fuhrer says the Jews must be 
annihilated: 
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.revisionism/msg/2ef0cf9e3a71db4b 


The Holocaust in Photos
http://www.zwoje-scrolls.com/shoah/camps.html 


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R
Holocaust Documents:

http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/document/document.htm


Films of Nazi Concentration camps taken by Allied photographers

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2074187239501225850

You've been neglecting your reading:


I have assembled various links from various posts to this newsgroup
into one post on the subject of gas chambers. Most of the links come
from posts made by either Dan Keren or Ron Jacobson. I thank you both
for this material:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1673471.stm
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/documents/auschwitz/Vergasun...
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/documents/auschwitz/Gas-
Detector.shtmhttp://www.holocaust-
history.org/~dkeren/documents/auschwitz/Vergasungkeller.shtml
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/iffr/report.shtml
http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110005318
http://www.holocaust-history.org/ Homepage of Holocaust History
Project
http://www.holocaust-history.org/himmler-poznan/
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/GasChamber/Index.html
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/GasChamber/gaschamber.html
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.activism/msg/00d6ae6bea54fb12

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/expert-unearths-evidence-of-mass-graves-at-treblinka-death-camp-2990076.html

That decision was made by the Pope.Are you actually trying to tell us the Pope is Jewish???????????????????????????You're joking, right??????????

Obviously, you know nothing about the Roman Catholic Church.Loyal Catholics are required to publicly support the RCC's views on everything.They can think what they want privately, but they risk excommunication if they publicly disagree with the Pope and church dogma.

Good grief!I'm not even a Christian and I know that.

seriously? people are debating the holocaust? TROLL.