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DEBATING THE HOLOCAUST: A New Look At Both Sides

 
 
rabel22
 
  0  
Wed 4 Feb, 2009 03:50 pm
@Setanta,
Perhaps if Israel would refer to the millions of non jews who were murdered during the hollocaust it wouldent be so apparent that they use it for political fodder to further thier political aims. This is the reason I have no respect for the government of Israel. They are nothing but politicians useing a disaster to futher thier aims of conquest and land acquisation.
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Wed 4 Feb, 2009 04:33 pm
@rabel22,
that's widely known and documented by jewish and non-jewish historians alike. i at least haven't encountered anyone denying that other groups were being exterminated in the camps along with the jews.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 4 Feb, 2009 05:06 pm
@rabel22,
Jesus, this is idiotic. Perhaps you failed to notice that i have repeatedly referred to the slaughter of Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, homosexuals and mentally and physically handicapped people. No matter what you allege Israel is doing, that doesn't change the indisputable fact that holocaust denial is a major part of the agenda of racist, white supremacist groups such as Stormfront, which was the point of my post to which you responded.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Wed 4 Feb, 2009 05:45 pm
There is really nothing to debate about the Holocaust. It happened. Some feel remorse, some feel shame, some feel nothing. But many anti-Semites feel, I believe, anger, because it was a failure. Jews are here. All around the world. Speaking different languages. Some assimilating through intermarriage. Others not. But all in all the Holocaust was a failure.

Whether or not Israel continues in its present land area is just something that has nothing to do with the Holocaust.

By the way, Rabbi just means "teacher," like "minister" is just a teacher. Jesus, as a Rabbi, was on the cutting edge of Judaism. It is a compliment to be called Rabbi, in my opinion.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 4 Feb, 2009 06:31 pm
Is Zippo a denier of the Holocaust because hes just naive and ignorant, or is he one of the Aryan Nation types ? which is it Zippy?
rabel22
 
  0  
Wed 4 Feb, 2009 07:44 pm
@farmerman,
Ive got a question for you. Why is it that anyone who disagrees with the state of Israel is branded a racist. I dont like the FACT that they are trying to destroy the palistianian people and useing something that happened 65 years ago as justification for thier war crimes. If that makes me a racist than so be it.
Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 4 Feb, 2009 07:53 pm
@rabel22,
I criticize the actions of the government of Israel all the time, and i've never had anyone brand me an antisemite. In fact, we've got this loon Zippy here who claims i'm a "rabbi" and that my point of view is that Israel can do no wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. But truth doesn't matter to Zippy. He has his twisted mind made up, and all he does is go looking for sick **** on the web to support the point of view he's already decided upon. People who criticize Israel and then hurry to say that they will be called antisemitic, in advance of any criticism are being stupid, and are attempting to justify themselves and immunize themselves from criticism.

It is not necessarily a "fact" that Israeli is attempting to destroy the Palestinians. I have no doubt that there are many Israelis, including members of government, who wish this. But that is not the same as saying that all the citizens of Israel wish to do that, and when you don't make a distinction between the actions and policies of the government of Israel, and the Israeli people in the aggregate, you might as well be a racist, because that is the kind of thinking a racist does--lumps all the people of a group together, vilifies them and then uses broad generalizations to demonize them.

The state of Israel did not honor the terms of the 1947 United Nations General Assembly Resolution which authorized the foundation of a nation of Israel. The government of the state of Israel has pursued, usually (but not always) a program of what amounts to imperialism, taking lands which Zionist fanatics had staked out at least as early as 1919. But that doesn't make all Israelis Zionists, and it doesn't authorize the sort of obsessive, irrational hatred that is eating Zippy up. You should hope you never become that obsessed and that irrational.
IlSan
 
  1  
Wed 4 Feb, 2009 09:22 pm
@Setanta,
Nicely put Setanta

Critizising Israel is something the whole world was doing but a few days ago - condeming the actions taken against Palestinia...even an old supporter such as France has voiced their anger about the war (or slaughter, as other heads of nations have put it).
They are not being called Nazis or Racists or Anti-Semitic - they are being called the voice of the people.

As to the other point, very well made if I may add, that not all Israelis support this war.
Definetely not!
Many of them actually wish, that both sides could just sit down, and bury their decades old hatred for one another...so that the civilians (who are mainly affected) can sit in their houses again without the fear of being blown to pieces (on both sides).
The statement, that all Israelis wish the Palestinians dead would be the same idiocity like claiming, that all Germans wanted the Jews dead and wanted World Domination. It ain't the case - or else there would have never been an Abwehr!!

Returning to the actual topic of looking at the Holocaust from both sides, yes, I fully support this notion - but not in denying it are we looking at both sides, but in facts and figures.

I may add a part in this, if I may.
During my extensive trips to Germany, and actual talks with Germans that had lived during this time, I have learned quite a bit.
Yes, it is in dispute every now and again about the actual number of people who have been killed in the concentration camps. But no doubt about, that this has happened.
There are some different opinions about who was killed in the concentration camps (don't get me wrong...the dispute here is about the opposers of Hitler...whether they were actually send to these camps or executed at the Gestapo Head Offices throughout occupied Europe.)
And yes - surely there are some facts, that are a little thin, and are always topics at academic discussions around the world - aside from the fact, that some facts are missing to get the whole picture.

But in all my time at such discussions, open forum events, never was there a doubt that the Holocaust has happened.
Some differ in numbers, some in methods and yes, I have heard the theory, that it was not planned from the start - at least not by Hitler himself, but rather Heinrich Himmler.

To say the least, this in my eyes are minor details, which to be really honest, will never change the fact, that a terrible crime was comitted during the "Third Reich", well, actually there were a few....but never mind. This crime was comitted.
We can go on trying to convince Mr. Zippo about this, I guess, for all eternity - and he will not see it.

All that can be said is, that it always amazes me, that there are people who just don't want to accept the fact (for what reasons what so ever) that this has happened.
Germany has accepted it - and let's face it, if they can stand by that history, who are we to try to deny it. The very people who still suffer from their history (this would be a different discussion) know what has happened, accept it, and well, at least all Germans I know, pray it never happens again.
rabel22
 
  0  
Wed 4 Feb, 2009 11:27 pm
@IlSan,
If you people would go to some of advicotes posts you would find he has indeed called me raciest because I had bad things to say about Israel. If Zippo is a bug so is Advocate in the other direction. I have never denied that the Hollicaust took place just that it wasent only Jews that died in it and that the Isralies downplay the fact so they can play thier political games. I have heard some Isralie citizens on the news state that palistinians were a lesser people so it is alright to kill them because they claim that not fighting them is the same as actively backing Hizballa, or however you spell it. So I ask why dont the Isralies who disagree with thier government not actively fight thier milliteristic politicians. I suspect its because like the Palistinians who want peace they would find a 30 cal. rifle stuck up thier ass so they all do the smart thing and keep thier mouths shut.
Setanta
 
  1  
Thu 5 Feb, 2009 05:35 am
@rabel22,
You seem to be rather slow. What Advocate says does not bind anyone else, nor does it describe anyone else. You also seem slow to take up the point that what some Israelis say or do does not automatically function as a working description of what all Israelis say or do.
Zippo
 
  0  
Thu 5 Feb, 2009 11:05 am
75% Israeli Jews are racist!
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3381978,00.html

===========

Every day, in every aspect of the media, you will be reminded of the holocaust of World War II and the damage it did to one group of people. You are supposed to feel guilty and excuse away anything these people, who are portrayed as the only victims, now do to society. You are not to mention others, such as the Poles, Russians and Gypsies who suffered equally if not more, for that would detract from the lie with which the rest of humanity is being burdened. Sure, terribly evil things happen in war, but it is even more terrible to allow lies to be embellished and used to promote guilt, misunderstanding, blackmail and more evil. Sooner or later, there will be a worldwide confrontation arising from this deceit, and the liars will come off second best.
Zippo
 
  0  
Thu 5 Feb, 2009 11:07 am
@farmerman,
When did I "deny" the holocaust?
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  0  
Thu 5 Feb, 2009 11:21 am
@Setanta,
So do you seem to be slow on the uptake. My reference to Advocate was in answer to someone claiming that my attack on the Isralie political system made me an antismitic was not true. I dident say I thought his saying it made it true. So you took this out of context. However he did claim such. As far as the blame that adheares to the citizens of countries that fight unjust wars do you agree that all the citizens of that country are guilty of blame for the damage they do. I am sure that I have seen you attack the U.S. over the Iraqui war and you are right to do so. Bush and his government was wrong to do so. Why am I wrong to point out that the Isralie government engages in lies and uses something that happened 65 years ago as an excuse to kill thousands innocent Palistinian in order to kill a few hundred people that they brand terroists. If it was your childeren or mothers and fathers who were being bombed into oblivion you would also be straping explosives on yourself to get revenge which by the way is what the Isralies are engageing in. revenge for something that happened 65 years ago. Read some other papers beside the Isralie and U.S. rags that are so pro Isralie and you might get a different perspective, a more evenly balenced one.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Thu 5 Feb, 2009 11:53 am
Quote:
My reference to Advocate was in answer to someone claiming that my attack on the Isralie [sic] political system made me an antismitic was not true.


No one here said it was not true. What i said to you was that i commonly criticize Israel, and have not been branded a racist. You then complained about Advocate saying something like this to you, to which i responded that that is not a basis for you to claim that you will automatically be branded an antisemite if you criticize Israel. I took your point, but you obviously did not take mine, which is why i will continue to surmise that you aren't very swift on the uptake.

I didn't take it out of context, nor did i assume that Advocate making such a remark made it true--i was pointing out that one person saying that about you is not evidence that you will automatically be branded antisemitic for criticizing Israel.

No, i don't agree that all the citizens of a country which fights any kind of war are ipso facto responsible for damage done in said war, whether or not one alleges the war to have been just or unjust.

You are making little sense here. For one thing, Israel did not exist 65 years ago--it has only existed since late in 1947, and only fought their first war with the Arab nations in 1948, just over 60 years ago. You might think it is a quibble, but it provides evidence of just how little you know of the history of Palestine. The cycle of attack and retaliation only begins after 1948, when the Israelis drove Palestinians off their land and into the Gaza strip or the area of Jordan known as the west bank. For most of the brief history of Israel, their attitude has been one of militarily based triumphalism; the siege mentality is only the product of recent years, especially the last two and a half decades. I am certainly not such an idiot as to strap explosives on my person and go blow myself up in a crowd, no matter what provocation one could allege. I don't rely on the Israeli (learn to spell the word) press, nor what you are pleased to call "U.S. rags" as my sole source of information on current events. I am also not so completely ignorant of the history of Palestine as you are. I be goddamned before i'll accept being lectured to by some clown who can't even spell Israeli correctly, let alone give a coherent account of the history of Palestine and Israel; let alone describe the proximate causes of the conflicts there over six decades.

I surely don't need someone so obviously ignorant as you to tell me what's going on there, especially when it is so obvious that you don't know. I also don't need you making assumptions about what i think, what i read and what i believe.

Clown.
Foofie
 
  1  
Thu 5 Feb, 2009 10:12 pm
@Zippo,
Zippo wrote:

75% Israeli Jews are racist!
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3381978,00.html

===========

Every day, in every aspect of the media, you will be reminded of the holocaust of World War II and the damage it did to one group of people. You are supposed to feel guilty and excuse away anything these people, who are portrayed as the only victims, now do to society. You are not to mention others, such as the Poles, Russians and Gypsies who suffered equally if not more, for that would detract from the lie with which the rest of humanity is being burdened. Sure, terribly evil things happen in war, but it is even more terrible to allow lies to be embellished and used to promote guilt, misunderstanding, blackmail and more evil. Sooner or later, there will be a worldwide confrontation arising from this deceit, and the liars will come off second best.


After years of wondering why Jews were willing to publicize the Holocaust and other groups that died, due to the Holocaust, said much less, I have a theory.

My observations have led me to believe that many peoples like to believe that they are liked by the world, so to speak. Many peoples do not like to admit they were ever victims of genocide. This might be a very normal psychological reaction, since most people want to be liked, and do not like when the reverse might be shown to be true historically.

In line with that, in my observations, there are only a few groups, Jews included, that are willing to discuss openly what was done to them as a victim.

And, since many people do not like to identify with an evil aggressor, many people have concocted canards as to why the Jews "were picked on" in Germany. The stories include that they really did "stab Germany in the back," or they were "just outsiders" and should not even be in Europe (and then there is the religious rationale that it was divine payback for rejecting Christ).

What is amazing is that for such a "drop in the bucket" for their population in the world, they seem to attract many who are either obsessively against them or obsessively for them? They really have gotten more than their alloted 15 minutes of fame!
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  0  
Fri 6 Feb, 2009 12:50 am
@Setanta,
Well I would rather be ignorant than an obnicious sob like you. I think you purposely misinturpet others post just to have something to argue about. I stated my beliefs, take them or leave them. I dont argue for the fun of it. When it becomes apparent that a person refuses to recognize my points I quit posting to them.
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 6 Feb, 2009 01:24 am
Ground Penetrating Radar is a tool that is subject to interpretation based upon many diurnal and site specific conditions. The NAFH, a group of admitted Holocaust deniers, is immediately suspect to provide anything valid by using a geophysical tool. I talked with the folks at one of the GPR manufacturers yesterday and they said that they were not consulted in instrument calibration or final signal processing. There are about 5 companies worldide that make these things and the one I talked to also had doubs about the veracity of the field data especuially in areas where original probing HAD determined that greaves existed. Pwrhaps the ground, having been disturbed by reinterment activities, was disturbed enough to make the signal returns useless. GPR is sensitive to soil conductivity and since the area has been mapped and gone over previously, the technique is less preferred than is direct observation.
Weve got a lot of experience with GPR and I know that many archeological surveys just crank the machines up and run over the sites with no plans in mind and no pre calibration to determine the background conductivity profiles in undisturbed soils. I would love to see the entire report and raw data , however Im almost certain that full disclosure is not what they are about
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Fri 6 Feb, 2009 06:27 am
@rabel22,
I recognize your "points," i just think they're full of **** due to your ignorance of the history of Palestine and Israel--an ignorance it appears you are comfortable with. Saves you that messy process of actually informing yourself and re-evaluating your arguments from ignorance, huh?

I believe the word you wanted was "obnoxious."
rabel22
 
  0  
Fri 6 Feb, 2009 10:30 am
@Setanta,
Perhaps you could educate me o great and intelligent one. The length of the history of Israel is about the same as the Hollacoust. The palistianian people however have been there a bit longer. The people of Israel are a dirvise people, Russian, German, polish, Palistianian, a mix of dervise peoples. There is not as far as I know a jewish race. There is a jewish religion that has been around for 5000 years or so. Now we have a jewish state established by the british with the assistance of the U.S. that has a state religion. While I believe that people should be able to practice thier persomal religious beliefs I dont think a state religion is a good idea and the Isralies are a prime example of this. I want to appoligize for the sob remark but the obnoxious one remains, and feel free to correct any spelling mistakes I have made ass hole.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Fri 6 Feb, 2009 10:55 am
In fact, there are no races of any description anywhere. If you want to educate yourself, you could start with Herodotus, who is the earliest author to mention Palestine. You might then proceed to any reasonably reliable history of the Roman empire which will specifically deal with the military campaigns of Pompey--Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus. From there i would advise reading up on Titus Flavius Vespasianus, before he became emperor. From there, move on to Titus Flavius Josephus (Yosef Ben Matityahu) to read his The Jewish War. By that point, you will have arrived at the time of the Jewish Diaspora.

Of course, you'll still be 2000 years behind the times, but that will leave you no worse off than you are now, with your opinionated truculence based on near total ignorance.

Later, you will want to investigate the history of Zionism, the appeal of the Zionists to the Paris Peace Conference, the history of the Palestine/Transjordan Mandate, United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181--all before doing a careful review of the history of the state of Israel.

You keep talking about what was done to the Israelis 65 years ago. Israeli policy from the foundation of that nation, which was just over 61 years ago, was not motivated by retaliation (it was only much later that retaliation came in, when they had given the Palestinians the basis for a grudge, and a blood feud). Of course, 65 years ago, there was no Israel. But it is significant because it is evidence of just how much you don't know about Israel, the Palestinians and the situation between them.

Of course, mere ignorance doesn't necessarily stop people from holding strong views.
 

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