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HOW DO YOU DO CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM OF ELECTED LEADERS?

 
 
Foxfyre
 
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 09:40 am
How do we constructively evaluate and criticize elected leaders when we do not agree with or support a proposed policy? What is the proper way to communicate what we want from our elected leaders?

In another thread, Rush Limbaugh is being mostly damned and trashed (and misquoted) for saying that he will support President Obama in good policies and will hope President Obama fails in getting through any harmful agenda should he propose such an agenda. Limbaugh is being condemned for being hateful re President Obama and being misquoted that he wants President Obama to fail.

In the opening chapter of Bill Sammon's book Misunderestimated, Sammons describes in some detail a crowd demonstrating frightening and aggressive unmitigated hate directed at President Bush during a visit to Portland. Early on some in the leftish media had coined the phrase 'selected - not elected' and condemned numerous points of President Bush's stated agenda and/or ridiculed the president for being ignorant, stupid, etc. This was all before 9/11. President Bush supporters saw this is unhelpful and hateful.

So how can it be said/done better?

Hoping that we can keep this objective and civil, discuss.

 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 09:53 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

How do we constructively evaluate and criticize elected leaders when we do not agree with or support a proposed policy? What is the proper way to communicate what we want from our elected leaders?

In another thread, Rush Limbaugh is being mostly damned and trashed (and misquoted) for saying that he will support President Obama in good policies and will hope President Obama fails in getting through any harmful agenda should he propose such an agenda. Limbaugh is being condemned for being hateful re President Obama and being misquoted that he wants President Obama to fail.

In the opening chapter of Bill Sammon's book Misunderestimated, Sammons describes in some detail a crowd demonstrating frightening and aggressive unmitigated hate directed at President Bush during a visit to Portland. Early on some in the leftish media had coined the phrase 'selected - not elected' and condemned numerous points of President Bush's stated agenda and/or ridiculed the president for being ignorant, stupid, etc. This was all before 9/11. President Bush supporters saw this is unhelpful and hateful.

So how can it be said/done better?

Hoping that we can keep this objective and civil, discuss.




I thought the many news websites have comment sections for respective articles? I thought even foreign news agencies have a spot for comments (i.e., BBC).
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  3  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 10:01 am
@Foxfyre,
This is an interesting question... I think you err in making Rush Limbaugh your example (most of us think he is particularly nasty). There has to be better examples of Conservatives engaging in "constructive" criticism.

The reason this is an interesting question is that the difference between "constructive criticism" and "partisan nastiness" is purely subjective... the fact that you and I apparently feel so different about Mr. Limbaugh is a perfect illustration of this.

farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 10:09 am
As gungasnake says all the time that, if someone thinks he will be misquoted because people dont tune in, Dont choose your sentences with the purpose of hoping you are misquoted. "

PS Limbaugh first stated his "I hope he fails" on his radio program. Was the Inannity clip the same as his program? Or was Inannity just trying to mop up after him (remember the attempted mop up they tried to do on ESPN when Rush started getting really racists about Blacks in the NFL)

I dont know cause I dont listen much.
Quote:
By Leonard Pitts Jr

Syndicated columnist

Rush Limbaugh stirs the pot.
"I hope he fails."

" Rush Limbaugh

It is, of course, a calculated outrage.

Meaning, it was spewed by a clown in the media circus to kick a familiar sequence into motion: angry denunciation by bloggers, pundits and supporters of President Obama (the "he" whose failure is hoped), followed by Rush Limbaugh refusing to retract a word, a courageous truth teller who will not be moved. And, trailing behind, like the folks with brooms trail the elephants in the circus parade, Limbaugh's devotees, complaining that their hero has been misquoted, misunderstood, or otherwise mistreated. "What Rush meant was ... yadda yadda yadda."

A calculated outrage.

And knowing this, knowing how frequently and adroitly media are manipulated by self-promoting media clowns who defame conservatism by calling themselves conservative, one is tempted to let the statement pass, to make its way unimpeded to the dustbin like so many other manufactured controversies. But occasionally, it's necessary to intercept one of them and hold it up to the light.

This is one of those times. Not because what Limbaugh said on his radio program a few days before the inauguration was an outrage " outrage is the point, remember? " but rather, because of what the thing he said says about him and his fellow clowns.

"I hope he fails."

Do you ever say that about your president if you are an American who loves your country? Would you say it about George W. Bush, who was disastrous, about Bill Clinton, who was slimy, about Jimmy Carter, who was inept, about Richard Nixon, who was crooked? You may think he's going to fail, yes. You may warn he's going to fail, yes.

But do you ever "hope" he fails? Knowing his failure is the country's failure? Isn't that, well ... disloyal?

The irony is that Limbaugh and the other clowns would have you believe they are bedrock defenders of this country, that they love it more than the rest of us, more than anything.

That's a lie. Limbaugh just told us so, emphatically.

It's not the country they love. It's the attention. The ideology, their perversion of conservatism, is but a means toward that end.

Yes, an observer might point out that it's counterproductive to give them attention while decrying their love of attention. But, as already noted, occasionally the clowns spew something that cannot, and ought not, be ignored.

Ideological division is nothing new to politics. But has ideology ever taken quite the seat of prominence it now enjoys? Have people ever been quite so prone to regard their ideological identity as more important than their national identity? The last 30 years are rare in that regard, if not unique.

"I hope he fails?!"

So that, what? The defamation of conservatism Limbaugh represents will stand vindicated? The Republicans will pick up a few seats in the midterm election? Limbaugh's "side" " his word " will score points?

Is this only a game, then? No lives at stake, no future on the line, no planet in the balance? Just a game?

I hope he bricks this free throw.

I hope he fumbles that pass.

I hope he fails.

And to hell with the country.

The country doesn't matter. The "side" does. And Limbaugh's side seems angry in power and angry out. It's as if anger is all they really have.

Barack Obama was elected in large part on a promise to carry the nation past anger, past the notion that either party has a monopoly on wisdom, past the belief that ideology is identity. He was elected because people want a sense of mission that makes them feel like Americans again.

If he is successful, Limbaugh and the other clowns will face tough sledding in a radically different world. Small wonder he is so eager to strangle this presidency in its infancy. And need it even be said?

I hope he fails.

0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 10:11 am
hard as it was i had to sort of defend lush rimjob on that other thread, he's not being misquoted, he's being soundbited (?), the ideas leading up to the fail comment are being left out, he's actually hoping that obama's leftist socialist (as lush, sees it) agenda fails

what amuses me, is this idea that he doesn't want to live in a country where the government owns the banks and big corporations, umm, didn't GWB hand out the money that started all this talk
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 10:12 am
that's the closest i come to constructive criticism

if i had my way, there's be heads on poles outside of most government buildings
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 10:13 am
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

This is an interesting question... I think you err in making Rush Limbaugh your example (most of us think he is particularly nasty). There has to be better examples of Conservatives engaging in "constructive" criticism.

The reason this is an interesting question is that the difference between "constructive criticism" and "partisan nastiness" is purely subjective... the fact that you and I apparently feel so different about Mr. Limbaugh is a perfect illustration of this.


I used Rush as an example since it was the prejudicial trashing of him rather than what he actually said that prompted this thread. I understand that many of you think he is nasty and hateful and despise him, but maybe we could just one time get past our contempt for somebody long enough to actually listen to and hear what he is saying. (And thanks to you and DJ who are at least attempting to look at this rationally.)

Now, put the same words Rush is saying here in the mouth of a David Gergen or a Wolf Blitzer or a Bill Moyers and tell me that what he is saying is hateful:

ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 10:29 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Now, put the same words Rush is saying here in the mouth of a David Gergen or a Wolf Blitzer or a Bill Moyers and tell me that what he is saying is hateful:


Foxfyre, I tried. Honestly I tried to put his words, even in this clip, into the mouth of David Gergen or Wolf Blitzer. It is simply too much of a stretch even in this rather tame clip of Limbaugh.

Tell me the truth Foxfyre, can you picture any of the responsible journalists saying that the policies will mean "the end of America as we know it"?

Yeah... Obama is going to destroy America, and this is constructive criticism.

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 10:41 am
@ebrown p,
Well first, Rush is not a journalist. He is the most successful talk show host that America has ever seen and his 20+ years at being on the top of the heap has been due to his own style of communication and ability to read and respond to what people are thinking. He does use a lot of exaggerated metaphors and symbols as an entertainment factor, but only the most prejudiced would not recognize those as exaggerations for effect.

Can I imagine responsible journalists saying that an agenda that would socialize most of our economy will be the end of America as we know it and nationalizing health care will be irreversible? Absolutely. I think any responsible informed journalist would absolutely say that. Once we become fully socialized to the extent many European countries are socialized, we will be something very different from what we are now.

And David Gergen, Wolf Blitzer, Bill Moyers, and many others early on in various ways issued their own criticisms and fears of the Bush agenda and continued to do so throughout both terms of office.

So......instead of making this a Rush bashing thread--that is already established someplace else and have at it there......HOW DO we constructively express our concerns about an agenda proposed by the President? And how do we communicate what we want from him/her?

(Also you just wandered from the objective into the dishonest when you translate what Rush is saying in that clip to "Obama is going to destroy America".)





H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 10:42 am
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

This is an interesting question... I think you err in making Rush Limbaugh your example (most of us think he is particularly nasty).



If what you say is true then it speaks volumes about most of the people here on A2K and none of it is good... it's pathetic.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 11:36 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre, My main point is that apparently the difference between "constructive criticism" and "partisan hatred" is purely subjective.

The posts from you and H2OMan are fine examples of this.

The quote from Mr. Limbaugh was that Obama's policies (he was ranting about "liberal policies" but had mentioned "nationalized health care" last) would mean "the end of America as we know it". Bringing about the "end of America as we know it" sounds extreme.

This sounds like partisan hatred to me (but I accept that this is my subjective judgment).

Perhaps if you were willing to choose a more moderate example.

It probably is possible for a conservative to give "constructive criticism"... I am just saying that Rush Limbaugh is not it. He is not even close.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 11:50 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Once we become fully socialized to the extent many European countries are socialized, we will be something very different from what we are now.


I suppose, Foxfyre, you do remember that around 1990 all European communist countries "changed" their politics?
There isn't any socialised country in Europe since those days (leaving aside that the UK still is governed by a "socialist" party).
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 12:07 pm
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:
Foxfyre, My main point is that apparently the difference between "constructive criticism" and "partisan hatred" is purely subjective.


Even the definitions of words are subjective, depending on your perspective.

As an example, at a party I was at this weekend someone asked the question, "What's the word for someone who is anti-religious?" Two answers came simultaneously from two different people.

Person A: Liberals!
Person B: Republicans!

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 12:11 pm
America has come to the point where left hates right...and right loathes left.

Any other reading of it is wishful thinking.

I think most people at least try to make an attempt at being fair (not objective) but it is almost impossible in a site like this. Anyone looking for measured, courteous, respectful, calm discourse...is simply looking in the wrong place if they are looking for it here.

Members of the left...and members of the right...are going to flame.

It simply is going to happen.

You can have relatively measured, relatively courteous, relatively respectful, relatively calm discourse if that truly is what you want...by writing letters to the editor...and responding to them.

But if you want the kind of give and take a site like this offers...you ain't gonna get any of that other stuff.

You are a saint, Foxfyre. You just never seem to get pissed...and you respond reasonably politely to almost everything. But even you often throw out provocative comments...which almost beg for the kinds of responses you often get. (Using Rush Limbaugh in this thread is a huge "for instance.")

Acting the way we do here...is in the nature of this particular beast.

We all have to live with it...or get out.

There was a point where I opted for the latter. I left for almost two years because I got tired of the constant harangue (in which, I acknowledge, I participated fully)...and just left.

IT IS THE NATURE OF THIS PARTICULAR BEAST!
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 12:39 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Foxfyre admitted that Rush Limbaugh is not a journalist. Discussions would be more civil if conservatives avoided quoting propagandists like Limbaugh and if liberals avoided quoting propagandists like Franken.

(I must add, however, that Franken was correct in calling Limbaugh "a big fat idiot". Smile )
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 01:20 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Thank you Frank. For once I won't even correct a single point you made. Smile

I long ago decided it was futile and I would only make myself crazy trying to adjust my point of view just to gain the approval of others. And part of who I am is addressing pure injustices whenever I see them. World peace nor anything else of major importance is likely to result from anything said here on A2K, and I have long accepted that these kinds of forums attract some of the most hateful, mean spirited, ignorant, and immature kinds of people along with people I would love to sit down with and have long conversations with for what I would learn and because those people are so interesting.

I thought the unfair and dishonest way that Rush's words were being addressed in another thread was an injustice. While I often disagree with Rush's point of view, in my opinion Rush here gave a brutally honest and excellent object lesson in what constructive criticism of an elected leader should be; i.e. "I will support and praise him/her as much as I can based on what s/he does, and I will oppose him/her and hope s/he does not succeed in doing what I consider to be wrong, destructive, or dangerous."

I hoped there would be enough of those people I would enjoy having a long conversation with who would chime in on the thread and sort of shout down the numb nuts who only have ugly and insulting things to offer.

Hey I never claimed that I was anything but an eternal optimist. So I get disappointed a lot. But I'd still rather stay an optimist and hope that the better side of people will eventually shine through.

old europe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 01:39 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
I thought the unfair and dishonest way that Rush's words were being addressed in another thread was an injustice. While I often disagree with Rush's point of view, in my opinion Rush here gave a brutally honest and excellent object lesson in what constructive criticism of an elected leader should be; i.e. "I will support and praise him/her as much as I can based on what s/he does, and I will oppose him/her and hope s/he does not succeed in doing what I consider to be wrong, destructive, or dangerous."


That's not what Limbaugh said, though. It's your interpretation of what he said, and if you feel justified in interpreting his words in this way, then you should accept that people who disagree with conservatism will also interpret his words, albeit in a different manner.

Both ways are, depending on your perspective, "unfair and dishonest". For example, in the original statement by Rush (the video you have posted was actually a later reaction, and the way he restated what he had said earlier was already more moderate than what he said earlier), I can find absolutely nothing that would justify an interpretation saying that he would "support and praise" Obama as much as he can, based on what he actually does.

Is your statement therefore "dishonest"? From a certain point of view, certainly. From a point of view of somebody who shares your political convictions, it's maybe merely a legitimate interpretation and expansion on what Limbaugh actually meant to say, but didn't, when he made the original statement.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 01:51 pm
@old europe,
There is one significant difference in Rush's commentary on the website and in what he said in the video. On the website he did not specifically say that if Obama did not carry out the agenda he had been laying out there for a year and a half and rather adopted plans and policies that would be good for the country, he would have Rush's approval and support. So because he appeared to not be giving Obama any kind of chance and was catching all kinds of hell for it, Hannity gave him an opportunity to clarify his convictions on the matter.

Rush, in Rush speak, was saying on the website that he did not want to Obama a chance to carry out the agenda he had spelled out throughout the interminably long campaign. He hoped that agenda would fail because Rush felt it would be disastrous for the country if it succeeds.

How else should he have said it to get his point across do you think?

(Ones opinion can honestly be judged to be dishonest only when it is considered within the full context that explains, qualifies, and provides substance for that opinion. "Proof texting' and 'sound biting' is rarely ever an honest portrayal of what anybody says.)
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 02:06 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Rush, in Rush speak, was saying on the website that he did not want to Obama a chance to carry out the agenda he had spelled out throughout the interminably long campaign. He hoped that agenda would fail because Rush felt it would be disastrous for the country if it succeeds.

How else should he have said it to get his point across do you think?


He could have said that he opposed the agenda forwarded by Obama and that he hoped it would not get implemented.

He did not, though. He said that he was hoping that Liberalism would fail. He said that he was hoping that Obama would fail.


And that's the point: if you're saying that he said something "in Rush speak" followed by your interpretation of what was actually said, we are no longer discussing the actual statements, but someone's interpretation of those words.

And, depending on the political orientation of those you're having a discussion with, your interpretation of what Rush actually said might seem just as "unfair and dishonest" as their interpretation of his words appears to be "unfair and dishonest" to you.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 02:08 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Rush, in Rush speak, was saying on the website that he did not want to Obama a chance to carry out the agenda he had spelled out throughout the interminably long campaign. He hoped that agenda would fail because Rush felt it would be disastrous for the country if it succeeds.

How else should he have said it to get his point across do you think?


According to the transcript at Fox News, he said it a bit differently. ("So I shamelessly say, no, I want him to fail, ... ... ...")

I've no problem if someone says she/he wants a president/government to fail. I think, people could make their own minds about such person and her/his loyalty to their country, and even more to the people who voted.
 

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