MONTANA TALK TO ME

shewolfnm: I hear you. Sometimes I feel the need to state what might be clear to others but not ALL. One thing is clear...many people care for Montana..and this IS a community....more tightly knit than many realize.

I understand completely what you're saying and I'm not holding anything against you.
Now I'm going to tell you a story about me and my best friend. Robin (best friend) since we were kids.
Robin was the very worst when it came to making bad choices, especially when it came to men. She always ended up with the abusers and I spent many years right up until the day she died 6 years worrying my heart out over her.
When we were younger, I would try and get her to see these scum bags for who they are. Me and her father tried helplessly to help her, but all we ended up doing was pushing her away.
She went to the extent of moving to another state with her abusive boyfriend, leaving us frantic with worry.
When she finally left him and came back, she told us that she had to leave because me and her father were smothering her with our interference.

When her father and I tried to get her to see these jerks for who they were, we were very careful in how we did this because we knew she would become offended if we were to talk to her like one would talk to a child. This would cause her to shut us out, but even as careful as we were, she still picked up and headed to Florida with slime bag, where he abused her even more than before.

Since then, I make a point to not interfere in choices others make. If someone asks me my opinion or advice, I'll give it, but I'll be very careful in how I do, especially if it's someone I care very much for, like many of you, including you.

I need the freedom to make my own choices in life, just like my dear friend Robin needed. We refused to give it to her, so she got outa Dodge, putting herself in an even more dangerous situation.

We are all cut differently and have a different perspective on things and I appreciate that, but that's what makes this situation so difficult. Everyone loses because everyone ends up offended and I just with there was a way to fix it.

I care just as much about you guys as you care about me, which is why I have to tell you if something you do bothers me, which is what friends do. How else are you going to know?
If I say nothing, then I leave my self open to it happening over and over again, which could eventually cause me to be resentful, pulling a Robin and getting out of Dodge.

If there was ever an occation for being stuck between a rock and a hard place, this would be it for me.

All I can say now is that I'm very sorry that this all happened and I hope that some day some of you will understand.

Then there's this, which I forgot to mention. Exactly Ragman, exactly!

Thank you

I never said you guys were stupid at all. I may have gone that route with one member, but not the rest. I spent 2 days responding to you all individually.

If the guns are rude, the gun tends to backfire Shewolf and that's what I'm trying desperately to put out there.

Nodding.

See my "My Sister is Getting Married, But..." thread. The basis of the other thread link posted above regarding relationships, represents my (current) basic philosophy. (People are just people, we're all here just trying to get through, we have our own paths to struggle through that for whatever reason we have to travel - and ultimately we travel alone.) That's why Cav's quote - "We are all indeed human under the skin" was my sig line for so long. Acceptance of others as being where they are supposed to be at any given time, to learn whatever it is they are supposed to learn, and all of that is okay because it isn't personal - it's them ... seems basic to me.

I know from postings that a lot of people have issues with Hawkeye (for good reason in one particular case) but I "get" his thinking in general. Again, it seems to fit in with with the relationship thread referenced above related to what Fox had posted.

Having said all of that (nonsense?) I struggled through the past few days of threads knowing that each of us was just being who we are (and that's a good thing). I struggled precisely because I wanted to both be your sister AND follow my general outlook (to each his own path and that's okay) - a repeat of conflict with my real sister in my real life. When to offer guidance and when to step aside?? I wish we had a "Threat Level" for guidance on that similar to the applied to terrorism. Would make it a lot easier.

Even if some DID intend to insult you (which I do not believe to be the case - but doesn't matter because it is how YOU took it that matters) YOU have now experienced standing up for yourself and because that happened YOU needed it to happen. Why, is for you to figure out.

Now, my sister... Go forth and conquer.

(Ooops! I probably shouldn't have 'terrorism' and 'conquer' in the same post...)

This is why I took the time to respond to everyone individually. I didn't just throw you all in a big pile.

No doubt about that, which is why I've been here all these years. You all (with a few exceptions) mean so very much to me and something like this is the last thing I wanted.

Maybe you're right that the few who did insult me the most, didn't intend too, but if that's the case, I feel they should consider their words carefully before throwing them at someone who they say they care for, especially when I've already expressed to the same few in the past that calling me gullible and naive is highly insulting to me.
It's a matter of respect and I feel that concern can be presented without judgement.

(((((((Hugs to my sister)))))))

I don't think it's quite "everyone" who took that approach.

(But - since I know that sounded snippy - well, it was snippy - I do know that many who did, did so out of love, and your post clearly shows that love.)

Any case, I just wanted to say, huh - if I were your sis, and we're taking the dating metaphor here, that would so totally backfire.

If I liked a gal, enjoyed dating her, but my friends saw danger, then of course I'd want them to tell me. But if, at least for the time being, I was still disagreeing with them and they went after her nevertheless, "pecking her eyes out the best way they could" because they cared for me - even if I didn't think they needed to, didn't want them to, and had explicitly asked them not to - whoo boy.

They would not be my friends for long, I can tell you. I'd tell them to get the hell outta my business and quick, and my instinctual reaction would be to defend the gal.

So - and this is the relevant bit I guess - even if all of you were actually right and the girl was a bad sort, your actions would have had the exactly opposite effect from what you intended to do - no matter how well-intentioned you were.

Yes!!!!!!! This is exactly what I've been desperately trying to say.

Also still, yeah, a PS re that dating metaphor. I realise it's a metaphor, of course, just a stand-in situation to better explain the point. But Ragman did hit a nail on its head there. Because thats what people reacted like, really - as if Montana was going on a blind date with this guy. When she refused to give the guy even an email addie or MSN. So I can totally see how that was offensive - like, you guys didnt even trust her to have a public, online conversation with the guy and get out of it OK?

I mean, Montana's got a big heart, sure, and I can see how people would be jumping up & down trying to warn her if she were to have made any suggestions of going out and meeting this guy on a random street corner or anything. But she was actually very cautious, and it seems to me she coulda gotten some credit for that. Like, "huh, seems like she's smart enough to take care of herself on the basics" - so maybe it's not quite at the point where we need to go against her explicit wishes and fight this intruder off for her?

I dunno, I guess mileages vary. To me, and I guess Montana's kinda like me, that's pretty invasive - so I can see doing something like that if you feel your friend is in acute danger, but going against a friend's explicit wishes just to save her from an unpleasant conversation on a public online forum? I dunno.

OK, now I'm babbling, sorry.

Well, epidermic reactions.

Easy to talk after the event, psycho show after suicide..

Yes nimh, except this is a public board, and everyone is entitled to their
opinion.

This is my last post to you Montana, and I will not address you again.
In my book you ARE gullible and naive, and I have come to this assumption
not only yesterday. I have read your Frenchy stories and many others you
have presented over the years, and this is my opinion of you. You might
not like it, but that's how I feel and the past few days have shown me
that you are. Another example is that you have complained for days now
that some people called you naive, gullible and vulnerable. They' are
entitled to do so, if it's their opnion of you. If it were me, I would ask
myself, why so many have expressed this opinion of me. Not you, you
start sulking more and more in those emotions as if it was the biggest deal
of your life. You're over 40 years old, aren't you?

Assessing your life for the past 10 years, you have said yourself that it
is shitty. Many outside factors can influence ones life, but if on a consistent
basis there is something wrong, you need to look to yourself and ask
yourself if it is YOU who needs to change.

I don't dislike you, otherwise I would have not bothered at all, and since
you are gullible in my book, I felt the need - as others have - to make you
aware of FOW's intention. My mistake - big mistake, and I certainly have
learned my lesson from all of this.

Please don't be sorry Nimh, you're not babbling. You're saying everything I feel, word for word and I can't thank you enough.
My voice alone doesn't seem to go very far, I'm afraid.

There is a world of difference however in expressing, out of love or concern, one's opinion about a danger or issue and then making the assumption that the warned person is too dumb to see it after the s/he has acknowledged the warning and advised that s/he has heard and is aware. Even worse is then ragging on the 'dumb one' and informing him/her how ignorant or gullible or naive or unsophisticated and/or incapable of rational judgment s/he is.

And then the hapless victim--in this case the 'victim' is one presumed to be in need of rescue--is criticized for not being grateful for the abuse and told that s/he should not be offended.

It was an interesting thing to watch.

In this case I think no harm, no foul was intended by anybody in particular, but it is true that good intentions can hurt the one we love.

And I have appreciated your assessment of the situation.

Hey chica!

I've been gone for a few days, not around much for most of last week, and not looking a politics threads for weeks before that so I'm clueless re the new poster and the situation. I've read this thread and your other one and, while my eyes have popped here and there, I know you well enough to know that you are staying true to yourself and your nature through all of this (whatever "this" is).

I don't judge you, the other poster involved, or any of the comments made here to you or about you. I don't know any of the history and won't comment about what has transpired. You already know how I feel about you and the kind heart that you carry.

However, the comment you made to Bill above caught my eye. It isn't unreasonable to think that your recent thread about your situation at work wasn't read by more than those who posted there. It isn't unreasonable to think that this poster has read more of your posts than the ones where the two of you interact. It isn't unreasonable to think that if someone wanted to "attempt" to manipulate a situation that he would expend considerable energies researching the background of his target. Nor is It unreasonable for your friends here to become protective towards you when they perceive you being abused (whether you are or not, whether you perceive it that way or not) just as you became protective towards many, many people here over the years when you perceived someone being mistreated.

Emotions erupt, passions flare, those who react negatively to you take on much more importance than they are worth. Screw 'em. There are plenty of people here and in your greater world who admire you and truly care about you. Fortunately, many of those people are right here and understand your good nature. I hope you feel the warmth of the hugs and caring thoughts coming your way from many of your friends here.

(((( Montana ))))

Absolutely. I think I see this exactly the way you do.

(Ha! Now there's something I don't think I've ever written before )

Yes Jane, you are entitled to your opinion, but if you say things to me knowing you'll hurt me, you're not entitled to my friendship.

You're not just rude to me Jane, as I've seen you all over the board treating others the same exact way. I've watched you belittle people all over the place and I felt for every one of the others you decided to throw your inconsiderate, rude opinions at, even people I never met.

I personally think your unfeeling, inconsiderate, intolerant, know it all, bitch (my opinion)and I'm truly happy to hear that your last post will be your last post to me. You're doing me a huge favor.

I don't think you'll ever learn. Not at your age.

((((((((JPB)))))))

I actually did take into consideration that FOW could have read everything I've written on A2K, so I was wrong in saying he couldn't.

I know people care, which is why they did what they did, but some carried it too far. They warned me and I told them all I heard them, but some just kept on coming at me.

I was just talking to the guy right here in front of everyone and many made this huge deal out of it, so yeah, I got pissed and told them how I felt and now they're all mad at me.
There are only 2 of the members who I could care less if they're mad or not and I think it's clear now who one of them is. These two have insulted me long enough to where I don't give a rats ass what they think about me.

Anyway, everyone else knows how I feel and I feel terrible about the whole thing. How do you tell people they're hurting you, without hurting them? <sigh>

(((((((JPB)))))) You know I love ya.

You feel how you feel, Montana, but please know that some of us see you as a pretty tough lady quite capable of taking care of herself despite your loving heart, and think you have nothing to feel terrible about. I have been learning from you.