Montana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jan, 2009 10:55 pm
@JustBrooke,
(((((((Brooke))))))
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  2  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 03:27 am
@OCCOM BILL,
Howdy Bill, it's the middle of the night and things are nice and quiet, so I wanted to respond to this properly.
First I'd like to say that I have been at this every waking moment for the past 3 days and just when the dust started to settle a bit, along you came with all this. I was already emotionally exausted and I spoke to you more harshly than I know I normally would have, and for that I'm sorry.
Even though I feel I may have been a little too harsh with you, I stand by what I said and now I'm going to properly explain to you why.

OCCOM BILL wrote:

You are well liked and understood here, Montana, and no one of any import is mad at you… I assure you. Indeed, you owe yourself an inward smile… at the knowledge that so many people care enough about you to have followed and/or participated in this unfortunate debacle. People who care about you have collectively spent hundreds if not thousands of hours in concern with nothing but your best interest at heart.


As I expessed several times already, no one had any reason what so ever to be concerned. I was talking with a man on a public forum, just like I talk to everyone else here and not once did I ever give the impression that I planned on taking our conversation out side of the forum, yet some still felt compelled to interfere. It was bad enough to where they made it impossible for me to talk to the guy.
Maybe it's because they care, but caring doesn't give anyone the right to control that person.
A little credit for having some common sense would have been nice. I appreciated the warnings, but it went way too far.
I'm a big girl and there is a thing called being over protective, expecially when I still can't see what the big deal was all about.
In all this, I can't help but wonder where everyone was when I truly did need them, like when I was in desperate need of a job reference.
Noddy (love you Jill), Mikey (you know I love ya) and Roger (love you too Rog) were the only ones who cared enough to help me then, when I was actually in need of help. [/quote]

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Now I’ll grant you that not everyone took care to word their concerned responses in a fashion that would be interpreted as kindness to you, necessarily… but many of their responses should nonetheless be interpreted as genuine concern in retrospect. Georgeob1 and Francis, for instance, weren’t sugar-coating… rather they were highlighting FoB’s deplorable tactics… and there is no rational explanation for doing so, except genuine concern for your well-being.


Again, as I stated so many times before. Concern can be shown and warnings can be given without literally trying to control my actions.
People were highlighting what they feel were FOW's tactics, with no proof to back their claims and knowing you've seen me in the political threads, you know I'm a woman who needs proof. I live by the words "innocent until proven guilty" and I personally think that's one of my better qualities.
The man makes a comment about Americans and suddenly he's attacked from all ends, even after he said he was sorry.
Yeah, he said some stupid **** here and there after that, but he was constantly under attack and couldn't post anywhere anymore. Hell, who wouldn't lash out?
Then when he tries to talk to me (one of the few left who would talk to him), suddenly he's a manipulating stalker?
I know someone might mention the post he made that upset me and started this whole thing, so I'll nip that in the bud while I'm here.
I confronted him on that post because I believe everyone deserves a chance to explain, especially if they ask.
I left here for a day just to get away from the madness and so I could think about it before I gave him a chance to explain.
The reasons why I gave him a chance to explain is that #1 he was costantly under attack, which is no excuse, but I know how stressful and draining that can be. #2. I read his post again a few times and noticed that it seemed like he started off talking to me, but suddenly drifted off to talking to others.
He was obviously very upset and, well, I think we're all guilty of saying stupid **** when we are angry.
I'm not condoning the stupid **** he said, but just saying we all say stupid **** sometimes, especially out of anger, which makes him no less human than the rest of us (my opinion, of course).
It's just all common sense to me. [/quote]

OCCOM BILL wrote:
I think most here understand your reaction to "mean girls," regardless of what their true intent may have been. That you had unresolved issues with some of them that needed to be addressed is perfectly understandable… and good on you for finally getting it out. I hope that having done so provides you with some peaceful feelings of relief.


I wouldn't call it "peaceful", but it was, indeed, a relief to get a few things off my chest.
As I stated before, there are only 2 people who I feel I should have confronted a long time ago and I think it's more than obvious who they are. Actually there's 3. 2 female and 1 male.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
While I can easily understand your reaction considering your mutual history, and have frequently been offended myself by their cavalier disregard for the feelings of others; in this particular situation I’ve no choice but to concur with their assessment of FoW.


Ok, so what's your point?

OCCOM BILL wrote:
I like Shewolf’s abuse/relationship metaphor and really find it quite fitting. Nimh brilliantly highlighted the likely reaction from that kind of invasive interference, but there is a flip-side to that coin as well. Trying to compel the "sister/friend" to see their person-of-interest as destructive will indeed frequently result in pushing them away… but there really is no good alternative. It is equally ineffective to pretend the destructive person is A-Okay out of respect to the sister/friend’s feelings… so refraining from attempts to find some way to get that information across is equally unproductive. It is a pity that there is no magic answer to that situation, but there isn’t, so we all try whatever we believe is most likely to be effective, in a situation with no easy solution available.


What situation Bill? I was talking to someone just like I talk with everyone else, so the situation only started when some decided to turn it into a situation, therefor, no solution needed. Period and as simple as that. Now we do have a situation needing a solution, that was caused by a non-situation that needed no solution. <scratches head>

OCCOM BILL wrote:
You, yourself have felt the utter helplessness in attempts to compel someone in a bad situation to recognize the inherent dangers in relationships that are, or appear to be leading to, destructiveness. Your heart IS bigger than most, so I KNOW it affects you greatly when the intended recipient of your constructive sharing of your own bad experiences isn’t buying. I also know you would never judge that person stupid, simply for failing to recognize the simple truths you are writing on the wall. Neither do most, if not all, of your friends here consider you stupid for wanting to trust your own instincts over the preponderance of others. That is a perfectly natural reflection of self-respecting independence.


I also don't throw insults at people in distress who I'm trying to help. Kicking someone when they're down is just plain cruel. Hell, I think kicking someone when they're up is cruel as well, but kicking them when they're down is just evil in my eyes.
Even if I think someone is gullible or naive, I'm not gonna tell them that, regardless if I care about them or not (unless they're attacking me, then all bets are off) because all it would do is cause hurt and/or anger.
More common sense from where I sit!

OCCOM BILL wrote:
It is obvious that at 40+ you are a big girl who can take care of yourself, and I don’t believe any rational person was suggesting otherwise. But when it comes to all matters of the heart, we are all capable of being naïve, vulnerable, and we are ALL potential victims (save the sociopaths, of course.) That’s indicative of being human, not stupid.


Matters of the heart Bill? I was just talking with the man for christ sakes!

OCCOM BILL wrote:
For instance; I consider myself an exceptionally well grounded person, but history has recorded more than one example of my own heart leading me astray in defiance of logic and a plethora of good advice from well-meaning friends and family. Hell, that could be happening in my personal life right now; but I am content to follow my heart and in the words of Billy Joel; "I won’t hold back anything… and I’ll walk away a fool or a king." That in no way means my friends and family aren’t well-meaning in issuing their cautions, and I can only respect and appreciate their advice… even when I think they’re dead wrong. I recognize that concern for me is their sole purpose in offering their advice; and mutual respect compels me to consider that I may very well be wrong. Like you; only I can weigh the available information and come to my own conclusions.

Back to the matter at hand:


When concern turn into CONTROL, I get kinda bitchy, and again, there was no cause for concern to begin with.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
It is beyond obvious to most of us that this troll (FoW)(quite possibly (probably?) a recurring troll, who’s been here before, and knows you A LOT better than you think), was flagrantly, intentionally, and maliciously manipulating your feelings. That you are too sweet and generous in giving (s)he/it the benefit the doubt is a testament to how sweet you are. That in no way makes you stupid, because, again, we all fall into that trap from time to time. Who among us has never let their feelings override their common sense when they wanted to believe in someone, for whatever reason? The idea that we can control our feelings is utter nonsense; only sociopaths can do that.


I think this is what pissed me off the most in everything you said. What I see here is you fabricating things in your own mind to suit you and if there's any manipulation going on, it's right here.
I haven't allowed my feelings to override my common sense in 10 years and I'm not about to start now!
I may not be able to control my feelings, but you can bet you're bottom dollar that I am in complete control of my actions!
Labeling someone a sociopath, manipulator, stalker, etc...are serious accusations Bill, when you have to proof to stand behind your claim!

OCCOM BILL wrote:
I wrote and post the above for one reason only, Montana. I, like so many people here, respect and care about you and want you to recognize the outpouring of concern for you (whether misguided or not) for what it is. It is, for the most part, an outpouring of love for you Montana, and I want you to feel the warmth of that consideration over and above whatever slights you have suffered from "mean girls" or embarrassment from buying the troll’s bullshit.


"Embarrassment from buying the troll's bullshit"? Are you kidding me Bill? I am so far from being embarrassed, you have no idea! <laughing> Holy **** Bill, where do you get this stuff? <more laughing>

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Bask in that warmth and take solace in the FACT that so many people care enough about you to participate. It is evidence of how very special you are, and you should damn well feel good about it.


I should feel this even after asking people NOT to participate? Still scratching my head Bill.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Take care of you,
(((((((( Montana ))))))))


Yeah, you too Bill.
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  2  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 05:45 am
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:

I think you misunderstood my last post, Montana. Perhaps you thought I was being sarcastic? I wasn't. I inferred no lack of respect from you, and intended no further argument whatsoever. I think (hope) if you re-read it (knowing this) you'd come away with a much different understanding.


Read it again and my understanding of it is no different from the first time.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
One thing I do want to comment on, though;
Montana wrote:
If you valued my opinion Bill, you'd stop trying to change it.

This is just not true. I do value and respect your opinion, but that does not require me to agree with it. Similarly, when you disagree with me on something; I don’t take that as a lack of respect, either. Reasonable people can view things differently and that in itself is not indicative of a lack of respect from either party.


I may have valued your opinion more if you didn't take the "she's vulnerable, it happens to the best of us" approach to justify my my actions. All you managed to do is add insult to injury, so how do I value that?

OCCOM BILL wrote:
No worries. Unless you’re still communicating with FoW by some other means, there is no further need for concern… if indeed there ever was.


If it wasn't so early in the morning Bill, I think I'd scream!!!!

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Take care of you.
((((((((( Montana )))))))))


You too Bill.
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 02:09 pm
@Montana,
Sorry I exasperated your aggravation, Montana. That certainly wasn’t my intention.
I see now that you felt like I was piling on, and worse still; after the fact. Your suggestion that I may be overprotective is spot on. I am guilty as charged. I like you and don’t like it when you’re made to feel uncomfortable for being you, and I apologize for adding rather than subtracting from your discomfort.

My life’s experience in business (and personal experience) has honed a very keen sense of who is and who isn’t trustworthy. Having interviewed/employed hundreds of professional sales people and telemarketers; I can spot a phony faster than most. I’d rather you wrote my arrogant assumption that you needed my advice off to my own heightened sense of self, than as any lack of respect for you and your own reasoning skills. I have no shortage of respect for you, Montana… and have no doubt you can take care of yourself. But, right or wrong, when I feel someone is putting a friend on, I feel compelled to share my instincts in hopes to lessen the chance they could be hurt. I regret that my good intentions backfired (I guess that’s why they say the path to hell was paved with good intentions.)

My confidence in my assessment of FoW remains 100%, but you have every right to make your own assessment. Again; I’m sure you are perfectly capable of taking care of yourself, Montana, and I’m sorry my posts weren’t more reflective of that. My baby says I jumped the gun to comment at all, and she’s probably right. Take care of you!
(((((((( Montana ))))))))
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 03:55 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:

Sorry I exasperated your aggravation, Montana. That certainly wasn’t my intention.
I see now that you felt like I was piling on, and worse still; after the fact. Your suggestion that I may be overprotective is spot on. I am guilty as charged. I like you and don’t like it when you’re made to feel uncomfortable for being you, and I apologize for adding rather than subtracting from your discomfort.


I accept your apology

OCCOM BILL wrote:
My life’s experience in business (and personal experience) has honed a very keen sense of who is and who isn’t trustworthy. Having interviewed/employed hundreds of professional sales people and telemarketers; I can spot a phony faster than most. I’d rather you wrote my arrogant assumption that you needed my advice off to my own heightened sense of self, than as any lack of respect for you and your own reasoning skills. I have no shortage of respect for you, Montana… and have no doubt you can take care of yourself. But, right or wrong, when I feel someone is putting a friend on, I feel compelled to share my instincts in hopes to lessen the chance they could be hurt. I regret that my good intentions backfired (I guess that’s why they say the path to hell was paved with good intentions.)


I too have had a long history in life experiences. I've had 3 businesses (2 successful). I was a general contractor at 21 years old and later had a taxi business where I dealt with people from all walks of life.
When I was a child, my parents were seperated and we were dirt poor, living in the toughest parts of whatever town we lived in.
I was terribly bullied in school, so I started hangin with the toughest crowd in town, so imagine the kinds of people I met through them. Con artists up the ying yang, I tell ya.
I was born independent and poor mom finally had to throw her hands up in the air with me and set me free at a mere 15 years old.
I was out with my tough crowd until all hours of the night and nothing mom said or did could stop me.
She would ground me to my 3rd floor bedroom and out the window, climbing down the drain pipe I went.
Still at 15 years old, I started going out with one of the guys in the tough crowd. He was a 28 year old pot dealer and my parents (dad was back in the picture then) were frantic with worry at first, but since Billy (my boyfriend) treated me like gold and they at least knew where I was at night, they accepted the relationship. He protected me and my parents knew that, so it was better for them to know I wasn't out on the streets unprotected.
I was a major hand full for my parents, especially my mother because I needed my freedom no less than I need it today.
Later in life I had many jobs. I can't seem to stay put in one for more than 3 years without getting bored, so every few years I'd try something new.
I worked in stores and waitressed in my younger years 15-17, but I wanted a career, so I went in search of better opportunity.
I landed a job in a large payroll company at 17, moving onto working as a laser printer operator in a large bank at 19.
After that, I ended up going to work for dad in his construction business, where I was the only female sidewaller on the construction sites.
I did that for one summer and since I wasn't crazy about sidewalling and heights and dad hated doing the books, etc...he had me take care of that stuff along with the payroll, dealings with the builders, accountants, getting supplies to the job sites, etc.
I took over the business after dad died, but it really wasn't for me, so I sold it 2 years later.
I ended up as a bartender for 3 years and off to the taxi business I went. Just between these two, I met people from all walks of life and since I always had a natural curiosity to know what makes people tick, I was in a perfect position to be able to observe people, where the learning was endless and I met some really facinating people.
In between the construction business and up until a year before I came to Canada, I also ended up in 2 very bad relationships, where one of them was very physically abusive. I had a child with him, who I ended up having to care for myself right up until he was an adult.
My ex right after him was an alcoholic, who I could no longer live with for that reason.
Since then I've been alone, without a man in my life (10 years next month) and it's because I haven't met the right man. If I do ever meet that right one, I will be extremely careful and take it very slow before I ever let my guard down with a man again.
Walk softly, but carry a big stick is a way of looking at how I go through life.
I watch all the America's Most Wanted programs, along with Canadian case files and all the true crime story programs as well to satisfy my curiosity in knowing what makes people tick, even killers, rapists, etc....
My whole point in explaining all this Bill, is to show you that I have also walked many miles in life and have had more than enough experience of my own.
I appreciate your experiences, but I already knew where the light was, you know what mean?


OCCOM BILL wrote:
My confidence in my assessment of FoW remains 100%, but you have every right to make your own assessment. Again; I’m sure you are perfectly capable of taking care of yourself, Montana, and I’m sorry my posts weren’t more reflective of that. My baby says I jumped the gun to comment at all, and she’s probably right. Take care of you!
(((((((( Montana ))))))))


I think your baby is a very smart girl (not saying you're not smart) Wink

Thake care of you too (((((Bill)))))
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 04:00 pm
Hey Brooke, did you get my email?
0 Replies
 
 

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