Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

I'm not sure I see your point. But I agree that Israel does prosecute the rare case where there is an unlawful killing.

Actually, Yes Din says that only very few cases of the many which happened are prosecuted by the (military) prosecution.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Setanta wrote:
You provide ZERO evidence for the bullshit you post.

Nope. I am always happy to back factual claims with evidence. And you can't establish that a single claim of mine is untrue (for the simple reason that I am telling the truth).

This is, as usual, BULLSH*T.

No, as usual I am completely right again.

Setanta wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Targeting women, children and the elderly is a Muslim thing.
The IDF targets terrorists and militants.

You have provided NO evidence for this claim.

Evidence that targeting civilians is a Muslim thing?
How about this:

http://www.nocaptionneeded.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/wtc-9-11.jpg

Evidence of Israel targeting militants?
Here you go:
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/israel-and-palestine/130917/palestinian-killed-israeli-troops-west-bank-raid

I just love that language: "detain the suspect using live fire" Very Happy

Setanta wrote:

oralloy wrote:
As far as explaining the thousands of Palestinian women, children and elderly killed by the IDF, that is easy: Those people never existed, and the IDF never killed them.

You provided no evidence for this claim,

Well it isn't so much a claim of my own as it is a challenge to your claim that those fictitious people existed and were killed.

Setanta wrote:

and, in fact, the Israeli source which MJ has linked flatly contradicts your claim.

That a source which is infamous for lying, differs from the truth, is not really a good reason for abandoning the truth.

Setanta wrote:

oralloy wrote:
As always, targeting innocent civilians is a Muslim thing.

You have provided no evidence for this claim. This is mere estremist, right-wing polemics.

Evidence that targeting civilians is a Muslim thing?
How about this:

Setanta wrote:

I haven't seen you provide any evidence at all on the subject of the deaths of Palestinian women and children versus the deaths of Israelis women and children,

Well, it is largely a settled issue. Everyone already knows that most of the Palestinian deaths are fictitious, that most of the rest are actually militants who were legitimately killed, and that the handful of actual Palestinian civilians who are killed, are killed as collateral damage as Israel desperately tries to defend themselves from Palestinian aggression.

You might as well be saying that you haven't seen me provide any evidence that the sky is blue. Why would I be providing evidence for something everyone already knows?

At any rate, if you'd like to look at some accurate stats, this chart accurately describes the period where the bulk of the killing took place:
http://web.archive.org/web/20061027222544/www.ict.org.il/casualties_project/stats_page.cfm

Clearly the conflict continued after the last revision of that chart, but there is no reason to think the nature of the conflict changed after they stopped updating the chart.

Setanta wrote:

and MJ's source, an Israeli source, contradicts your typically unsubstantiated claims.

Considering the dishonesty of that source, having them contradict me is a positive sign.

If they actually agreed with me, I'd assume that I had made some sort of grievous error while tallying my figures.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

oralloy wrote:
I'm not sure I see your point. But I agree that Israel does prosecute the rare case where there is an unlawful killing.

Actually, Yes Din says that only very few cases of the many which happened are prosecuted by the (military) prosecution.

And who says that those other cases were also unlawful killings?

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Everyone knows Oralloy is full of shyt. But Advocate is another matter. He is rational in most topics until Israels agression comes up than he goes bat **** crazy. I worry that some not knowing this might take him seriously.

2 Replies

@RABEL222,

RABEL222 wrote:

Everyone knows Oralloy is full of shyt.

You trash shouldn't run around falsely accusing your betters of your own dishonesty.

RABEL222 wrote:

Israels agression

Stop lying, Adolf. All Israel is doing is defending themselves.

0 Replies

@RABEL222,

Quote:

But Advocate is another matter. He is rational in most topics until Israels agression comes up than he goes bat **** crazy. I worry that some not knowing this might take him seriously.

You are probably accurate in your statement, Rabel. Advocate is reasonable in most subjects; it's just that when it comes to Israel, he is excessively sensitive....a better word might be protective and feel everyone is ganging up against his beloved Israel with malice in their heart. Maybe Advocate is the stuff that extremists are made of. But I do agree with you sans the subject of Israel, he's as normal as American apple pie. Maybe I've been too caustic with him, but you see he's not entirely all blameless.....he calls posters liars and can be highly insulting as well.

2 Replies

@Moment-in-Time,

Moment-in-Time wrote:

You are probably accurate in your statement, Rabel.

Nah. Rabel is an anti-Semite of the low-IQ variety -- accurate in nothing whatsoever.

Moment-in-Time wrote:

feel everyone is ganging up against his beloved Israel with malice in their heart.

Well, that is a fair assessment of you anti-Semites.

Even when we saw the first real chance of negotiations for 1967 borders in more than a dozen years, all you thugs did was brutally attack Israel until those prospects for peace dimmed.

Moment-in-Time wrote:

Maybe Advocate is the stuff that extremists are made of.

Nah. He just objects to your anti-Semitism.

Moment-in-Time wrote:

Maybe I've been too caustic with him,

Your anti-Semitism is caustic by definition. But you would become a better person if you stopped being an anti-Semite.

Your timing kind of sucks though. Just think if all the anti-Semites around the world had rejected anti-Semitism before they had poisoned the atmosphere behind the peace talks. We might be looking at a final approach to 1967 borders right now.

Moment-in-Time wrote:

but you see he's not entirely all blameless.....

Sure he is. It isn't his fault that you're an anti-Semite.

The evilness in you comes from within.

Moment-in-Time wrote:

he calls posters liars

Did it ever occur to you that your hateful lies are objectionable to the innocent people who you are lying about?

Moment-in-Time wrote:

and can be highly insulting as well.

And rightly so. He is challenging anti-Semitism.

0 Replies

@oralloy,

Quote:

How about this:

Those must have been pretty special Muslims, Oralboy. They got three steel skyscrapers to fall into their footprints just with low grade fires - something that has never happened before yet for the US of A, three of them go down in one day.

In all likelihood, it's the US that created Muslim boogeymen to scare you child-like sheeple into another deep fear.

The 9-11 investigations were a fraud from day one.

And there is no group, no nation on the planet that targets civilians like the US.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I have no problem whatever with the existence of a Jewish state...Israel...but I think placing it where it was placed was a HUGE mistake. Frankly, I think it should be located within the continental boundries of the United States...where it would be safe...and where it would not have to engage in the kinds of expansion moves that many people here are lamenting.

When the Romans burned Jerusalem, that might have been their thoughts also?

What I think is the problem is that many Gentiles can't accept the cognitive dissonance of Jews being autonomous, and deciding their own fate. It really goes against Christian doctrine, in my opinion, since Christianity has so much to say about Jews in its bible. What Gentiles may not "get" is that Jews are not just merchandise to be moved from one store shelf to another store shelf. Plus, believe it or not, there are Jews that might not want to rub elbows with all manner of Gentiles. Specifically, in my opinion, Europeans, having such a well learned history of anti-Semitism. Some Jews, therefore, might just feel more comfortable with peoples that are not of continental European descent. Not to mention the obsession, by some people of European descent, that can't stop hoping for "the conversion of the Jews." Can you understand that contempt can go both ways?

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

Throughout the riots 133 Jews and 110 Arabs were killed. Britain's Shaw Commission determined that the cause of the riots were Arab frustrations in light of the fact that the Zionists' political

So, being "frustrated" with Jewish goals is a valid reason to murder Jews? Is that a standard feeling amongst Gentiles that think that Jews are "encroaching" on "Gentile turf"? Do many Gentiles feel frustrated when a home is not lit up with Christmas lights in December? Perhaps, the dirty little secret is that many Gentiles (aka, the "majority population") just have a "low threshold for frustration toleration." Perhaps, there should be a headstart program in Gaza and the West Bank for young Arabs to learn how to cope with the frustration of having Jews in one's midst. Oh, the humiliation of it, I guess.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Advocate wrote:
BTW, had the Jews wanted ethnic cleansing, a really big lie, how come there are 1.7 million Pals living peacefully in Israel?
I don't think that they wanted an "ethnic cleansing" as we call it today. But they wanted stay settle and stay in an "Arab-free country". That's what all the colonising policy was about in the early 20th century.

You mean like the Sudetenland had a majority of ethnic Germans?

1 Reply

@Moment-in-Time,

Moment-in-Time wrote:

Maybe I've been too caustic with him, but you see he's not entirely all blameless.....he calls posters liars and can be highly insulting as well.

Regardless of how one posts, the adversarial postings are really one-sided, in that the pro-Palestinean posters are illogical, in my opinion, since if most Germans can only say that the Holocaust "was wrong to do," but feel no remorse, nor SHAME, then what epiphany can be EXPECTED from a pro-Israeli poster about any minimal atrocities, when compared to Germany's past atrocities? In other words, the pro-Palestinean posters disregard the rockets and suicide bombings of the not too distant past, and just HARP on the continued settlement of the West Bank, implying no Arab should have to rub elbows with Jewish neighbors. Anywhere else, this is called a changing neighborhood. It is also a double-standard, based on the implied right of Gentiles to keep Jews at arms distance, Jews being so "different."

2 Replies

@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

You mean like the Sudetenland had a majority of ethnic Germans?

No. I was thinking of various reports and articles in some contemporary Jewish newspapers and magazines reporting about the colonisation of Palestine.

How did you get the idea that I was writing about the Sudetenland? Germans settled there in the early High Medieval Ages, quite a different period, I think.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:
You mean like the Sudetenland had a majority of ethnic Germans?
No. I was thinking of various reports and articles in some contemporary Jewish newspapers and magazines reporting about the colonisation of Palestine.

How did you get the idea that I was writing about the Sudetenland? Germans settled there in the early High Medieval Ages, quite a different period, I think.

But, not being part of Germany, others might have thought they should not be there.

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

... since if most Germans can only say that the Holocaust "was wrong to do," but feel no remorse, nor SHAME, ...

I notice the "if" in that response. And I'm quite aware that we've got Holocaust-deniers and similar right-wing persons here.

But that's a minority - similar in numbers to those in other countries, however, it's a lot more shameful that such exists here at all.

Generally, however, the Holocaust has a permanent place in everyday life and consciousness of Germans. It's dealt with in classrooms, part of the political and social identity and not only present through memorials in German towns.

The review of the Holocaust has never been unproblematic, changed over the years and can be seen as a mirror of time.
But by the large majority, the Nazi crimes in Germany are reviewed with responsibility, humility and shame.

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

But, not being part of Germany, others might have thought they should not be there.

At least since the Bohemian kings and noblemen supported emperor John of Luxembourg, it was part of the of the Holy Roman Empire.

When you, however, only think of 'Germany' as created 1871/2 - I want to get the Franks out of our Saxon territory!

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

I have no problem whatever with the existence of a Jewish state...Israel...but I think placing it where it was placed was a HUGE mistake. Frankly, I think it should be located within the continental boundries of the United States...where it would be safe...and where it would not have to engage in the kinds of expansion moves that many people here are lamenting.

When the Romans burned Jerusalem, that might have been their thoughts also?

What I think is the problem is that many Gentiles can't accept the cognitive dissonance of Jews being autonomous, and deciding their own fate. It really goes against Christian doctrine, in my opinion, since Christianity has so much to say about Jews in its bible. What Gentiles may not "get" is that Jews are not just merchandise to be moved from one store shelf to another store shelf. Plus, believe it or not, there are Jews that might not want to rub elbows with all manner of Gentiles. Specifically, in my opinion, Europeans, having such a well learned history of anti-Semitism. Some Jews, therefore, might just feel more comfortable with peoples that are not of continental European descent. Not to mention the obsession, by some people of European descent, that can't stop hoping for "the conversion of the Jews." Can you understand that contempt can go both ways?

I do understand...in fact, I grok it.

But the question with which I am dealing is peace in that area of the world.

I have noted that Jews and Arabs got along relatively peacefully for thousands of years before the state of Israel was created there...and since that creation, they have not gotten along at all.

The existence of the state of Israel in that area has to be considered a prime cause of the friction.

Jews do indeed have a right to self-determination. But so do Arabs and non-Jews living in that area. And many of those people have vowed to continue hostility for as long as the state of Israel remains there. THAT IS THEIR RIGHT ALSO.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:
... since if most Germans can only say that the Holocaust "was wrong to do," but feel no remorse, nor SHAME, ...
I notice the "if" in that response. And I'm quite aware that we've got Holocaust-deniers and similar right-wing persons here.

But that's a minority - similar in numbers to those in other countries, however, it's a lot more shameful that such exists here at all.

Generally, however, the Holocaust has a permanent place in everyday life and consciousness of Germans. It's dealt with in classrooms, part of the political and social identity and not only present through memorials in German towns.

The review of the Holocaust has never been unproblematic, changed over the years and can be seen as a mirror of time.
But by the large majority, the Nazi crimes in Germany are reviewed with responsibility, humility and shame.

O.K.; however, your fellow Europeans are only too happy oftentimes, in my opinion, to like the fact that the Nazis got the blame, but they, presently, have a virtual Judenfrei nation. Meaning, not that many Europeans, in my opinion again, feel it is their moral concern to deal with. And, you do know how many occupied countries (by the Nazis) were only too eager to help the Nazis round up local Jews. When help was requested, I thought hands went up like candy was being offered.

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:
But, not being part of Germany, others might have thought they should not be there.
At least since the Bohemian kings and noblemen supported emperor John of Luxembourg, it was part of the of the Holy Roman Empire.

When you, however, only think of 'Germany' as created 1871/2 - I want to get the Franks out of our Saxon territory!

I was taught that Bismarck unified the principalities to what is called Germany. Before that there were identities based on one's principality. Naturally, those descended from the Germanic tribes occupied much of Europe, having plotzed down, here or there, in the early middle ages.

We were never taught why those that stayed back in Germany became Germans, while those that wandered into western Europe developed their own identities? A desire to claim one's right to be on the land? Different tribes (i.e., Goths, Visigoths, etc.)?

4 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

But the question with which I am dealing is peace in that area of the world.

I have noted that Jews and Arabs got along relatively peacefully for thousands of years before the state of Israel was created there...and since that creation, they have not gotten along at all.

The existence of the state of Israel in that area has to be considered a prime cause of the friction.

Jews do indeed have a right to self-determination. But so do Arabs and non-Jews living in that area. And many of those people have vowed to continue hostility for as long as the state of Israel remains there. THAT IS THEIR RIGHT ALSO.

Just my opinion, but many a Gentile might have jurisdiction over the question of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, based on their historical family history. Israel might just be outside their jurisdiction; unless of course, if one is ready to rule the world, or proselytize Jesus style koom-bah-yah love ins.

1 Reply

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

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