Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

Foofie says:

Quote:

I do know of one instance when two (Polish) brothers were killed by towns folk, since there was already a Gentile family living in the house they lived in, prior to the war.

So, tell me, since you decry Polish gentiles taking the homes of Polish Jews without any recompense, why do you support Israelis taking the homes of Palestinians who fled their homes in the war and want them back, as the Polish Jews fled theirs and wanted them back?

Granted, the Israelis don't shoot them near the property, they just shoot them when they stage protests.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Some Jews on this thread doesn't even know Jewish history.

I certainly wouldn't hold that against the Jews...there just might have been a justifiable reason why some have omitted reading the ghastly details. Not every Jewish person have read an in-depth analysis of Heinrich Himmler, chief architect of the plan, "the final solution of the Jewish question." That Nazi policy against Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Mentally Challenged patients, anyone thought different from the image of the strong "perfect" Aryan was too gruesome and painful. My maternal grandfather was an ethnic Jew whose parents came to this country in 1933 from Germany; they were fleeing the rise of the changed German climate under Adolph Hitler. My grandfather (now deceased) went to his grave, never understanding why the Third Reich hated Jews so much, believing it was because Jews were blamed for killing Jesus. I did a lot of research on the Nazi period and found their inhumanity to non-Aryans beyond comparison. There have been atrocities throughout our civilization but to tatoo humans like cattle, catalog them, and later sending them to be slaughtered, cause me to shake to this day.

But this is our species, and the only species who kill other animals for sport. Even after Hitler, our species continue the same ole same ole, the continued use of biological weapons....remember Zyklon B, a chemical nerve gas use in WW2 on the Jews. Saddam Hussein and Bashar al-Assad have both used Sarin on their own people. One would have thought we would have learned fron WW2.

So yes, sometimes the real truth just may be too painful an ordeal for some of us to read about.

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@Moment-in-Time,

It is wonderful how MIT and CI are pseudo-experts on Jewish history.

They think they are clever when they twist their so-called history to make the present-day Jews look like barbarians. But the two of you should continue your love feast, and the rest of us will continue to laugh at your posts.

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@Advocate,

I am not laughing, and I would be willing to bet that the majority of posters on this site are not laughing either.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

You don't half talk a load of nonsense, nobody grinds their teeth in the UK when Jews are given positions of power. Stephen Fry is well loved, a national treasure. Simon Schama is well respected, as is Sir Jonathan Miller.

Boychick, who is talking about the Island of Magna Carta. England is not France, nor Russia, nor Austria, nor any other country that has a history of continual rabid anti-Semitism, at least after the Enlightenment, in my opinion. Yes, Brits seem to have a yen for the different, even the exotic. Good old chaps.

1 Reply

@MontereyJack,

MontereyJack wrote:

Foofie says:

Quote:
I do know of one instance when two (Polish) brothers were killed by towns folk, since there was already a Gentile family living in the house they lived in, prior to the war.

So, tell me, since you decry Polish gentiles taking the homes of Polish Jews without any recompense, why do you support Israelis taking the homes of Palestinians who fled their homes in the war and want them back, as the Polish Jews fled theirs and wanted them back?

Granted, the Israelis don't shoot them near the property, they just shoot them when they stage protests.

The Jews were taken from their (Polish) homes. The Palestineans left against the advice of Israelis, telling them to stay. Your equation is unequal on both sides.

1 Reply

@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

Quote:

It is wonderful how MIT and CI are pseudo-experts on Jewish history.

Hiya, Advocate. I'm unable to speak for CI....he does a fantastic job speaking for himself.....I'm only capable of speaking for me. I am not a historian or expert on "Jewish history." I have done a fair amount of research regarding the Nazi period and their treatment of non-Aryans especially Jews. Everything in my statement is well document.

Advocate wrote:

Quote:

They think they are clever when they twist their so-called history to make the present-day Jews look like barbarians.

Well, Israel's behavior is "barbaric." What other adjective would you ascribe to the stealing of one's neighbor's land, suppressing the people, killing them slowly.....?!

Advocate wrote:

Quote:

But the two of you should continue your love feast, and the rest of us will continue to laugh at your posts.

I have not seen or read where other posters were laughing at my posts censoring Israel with the exception of you, and a couple others, and that doesn't surprise me.

I am not contrasting the atrocities of the Nazi period with the stealing of Palestinian land in the West Bank today. But I understand where you're coming from; you want me to say modern Israel is not treating Palestinians the same way the Nazis did. You are correct, but that doesn't excuse Israel's continuing STEALING of Palestinian land with the quiet acquiescence of the US. If the US really intended to resolve this Israeli/Palestinian conflict they would cut the amount of annual monies to Israel it cost to build each settlement.

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@Moment-in-Time,

Moment-in-Time wrote:

There have been atrocities throughout our civilization but to tatoo humans like cattle, catalog them, and later sending them to be slaughtered, cause me to shake to this day.

But this is our species, and the only species who kill other animals for sport.

Based on some cultures, I believe some nationalities would not have the thinking to tatoo anyone, nor slaughter them like pigs. The problem might just be that the highest culture in Europe from the Victorian time was reprogrammed, based on an atavistic belief in prior glories? Anyway, some cultures do not value "efficiency" like others. I could never see Italians having the desire to catalog anything. So, Germans and their culture, might have been the perfect storm so to speak.

By the way, there are non-Jewish authors that were alive during WWII that had this feeling, that within the German character, there was something that could become malevolent. The "blond beast" theory, as I've read. I do not subscribe to that; however, if you notice that atrocities throughout history are referred to by the descendants of the perpetrators as "the wrong thing to have been done"; however, I never hear of "remorse" nor "shame" for the atrocities. Perhaps, another characteristic of perpetrators is to march lock-step, even after losing?

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@Moment-in-Time,

Moment-in-Time wrote:

Advocate wrote:

Quote:
It is wonderful how MIT and CI are pseudo-experts on Jewish history.

Hiya, Advocate. I'm unable to speak for CI....he does a fantastic job speaking for himself.....I'm only capable of speaking for me. I am not a historian or expert on "Jewish history." I have done a fair amount of research regarding the Nazi period and their treatment of non-Aryans especially Jews. Everything in my statement is well document.

Advocate wrote:

Quote:
They think they are clever when they twist their so-called history to make the present-day Jews look like barbarians.

Well, Israel's behavior is "barbaric." What other adjective would you ascribe to the stealing of one's neighbor's land, suppressing the people, killing them slowly.....?!

Advocate wrote:

Quote:
But the two of you should continue your love feast, and the rest of us will continue to laugh at your posts.

I have not seen or read where other posters were laughing at my posts censoring Israel with the exception of you, and a couple others, and that doesn't surprise me.

I am not contrasting the atrocities of the Nazi period with the stealing of Palestinian land in the West Bank today. But I understand where you're coming from; you want me to say modern Israel is not treating Palestinians the same way the Nazis did. You are correct, but that doesn't excuse Israel's continuing STEALING of Palestinian land with the quiet acquiescence of the US. If the US really intended to resolve this Israeli/Palestinian conflict they would cut the amount of annual monies to Israel it cost to build each settlement.

MiT...this last post of yours is one of the best posted by anyone in this thread.

Congratulations.

Both sides of this issue have their points...and it is not clearcut one side or the other, but this last post of yours shows a kind of realistic open-mindedness that would benefit most of the conversations taking place here in A2K.

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@Moment-in-Time,

Moment-in-Time wrote:

...But I understand where you're coming from; you want me to say modern Israel is not treating Palestinians the same way the Nazis did. You are correct, but that doesn't excuse Israel's continuing STEALING of Palestinian land with the quiet acquiescence of the US...

Stealing? Gentrifying, a la every run-down, marginally used neighborhood in the US. Who says land needs to be farmland. If that was the case, Queens, NYC, would still be milk farms. The Palestineans just want their own turf, with no Jews. A "restricted" state, a la Miami, circa 1920.

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@Moment-in-Time,

To focus on just a few of your many lies, you said:

"Well, Israel's behavior is "barbaric." What other adjective would you ascribe to the stealing of one's neighbor's land, suppressing the people, killing them slowly.....?!"

Israel has not stolen any land. There is no Palestinian country from which to steal. Israel is not suppressing anyone, and is certainly not killing anyone slowly or otherwise. Please show us your documentation.

BTW, do you agree with Frank's view that Israel should be eliminated? He loves your post.

3 Replies

@Advocate,

Quote:

Advocate wrote:
Israel has not stolen any land. There is no Palestinian country from which to steal.

Israel is not suppressing anyone, and is certainly not killing anyone slowly or otherwise. Please show us your documentation.

From my personal archives:

"At the time of the 1917 Balfour Declaration there were about 600,000 Arabs in Palestine and about 60,000 Jews. Over the next thirty years the ratio narrowed as Jewish immigration increased especially as a result of the anti-Semitic policies of Adolph Hitler. However, on the eve of the 1947 UN plan to partition Palestine, Arabs still were a large majority, with Jews amounting to only one-third of the population——608,225 Jews to 1,2237,332 Arabs. When Max Nordau, an early Zionist and friend of Zangwill, learned in 1897 there was an indigenous Arab population in Palestine, he exclaimed: "I didn't know that! We are committing an injustice!"

"Not only were a people already in Palestine, but they had a well-established society that was recognized by other Arabs as uniquely "Palestinian." It consisted of respected intellectual and professional classes, political organizations, and a thriving agrarian economy that was expanding into the crude beginnings of modern industry. Observes scholar John Quigley: "The Arab population had been stable for hundreds of years. There was no substantial in-migration in the nineteenth century."

"It was only strong pressure exerted by the Truman administration that secured passage of the UN Partition Plan by the General Assembly on November 29, 1947, by a vote of 33 to 13 with 10 abstentions and 1 absent. Among those nations that succumbed to US pressure were France, Ethiopia, Haiti, Liberia, Luxembourg, Paraguay and the Philippines. Former Under Secretary of State Sumner Welles wrote: "By direct order of the White House every form of pressure, direct and indirect, was brought to bear by American official upon those countries outside of the Muslim world that were known to be either uncertain or opposed to partition. Representatives or intermediaries were employed by the White House to make sure that the necessary majority would at length be secured."

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@Foofie,

You still wittering on?

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@Advocate,

Quote:

BTW, do you agree with Frank's view that Israel should be eliminated? He loves your post.

Frank Apisa had never said Israel should be eliminated. He has noted Arabs, Jews and Muslims lived relatively peacefully together in the same neighborhood before Israel moved in trying to own the entire shebang....I concur....Why, oh why, Advocate do you involve yourself in exaggerations!? Don't you know this undermines your credibility?! For centuries, the three dominant religions respected each other's space. But since Israel has been in the area there has been nothing but conflict, wars, and turmoil. The entire Arab world has been permeated with an unsettled environment since modern Israel has been in existence in the middle east.

A few years ago, the US was persuaded by the neocons to invade Iraq and to sweeten this deal for Dick Cheney, Iraq oil wells were dangled before the Vice President's greedy eyes....Cheney invaded for profiteering, and the NEOCONS invaded to get rid of an Israeli enemy, Saddam Hussein. Now Israel will not be satisfied until Iran is attacked. Netanyahu is about to SHAT himself because Obama has lessened sanctions on the Persian state Very Happy

.

As regarding the poster, Frank Apisa, in my personal opinion, he is a distinguished poster, and above average in intelligence; he does not speak carelessly. You, Advocate, would be wise to listen to him because you might learn something.

1 Reply

@Advocate,

Quote:

BTW, do you agree with Frank's view that Israel should be eliminated? He loves your post.

Advocate...I have NEVER said that Israel should be eliminated. Ever!

I have no problem whatever with the existence of a Jewish state...Israel...but I think placing it where it was placed was a HUGE mistake. Frankly, I think it should be located within the continental boundries of the United States...where it would be safe...and where it would not have to engage in the kinds of expansion moves that many people here are lamenting.

Please try not to misrepresent my position.

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

The Palestineans left against the advice of Israelis, telling them to stay.

While the Zionists were telling the Palestinians to stay, they were perpetrating ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in the areas which came under their control. Plan Dalet saw the complete depolulation and destruction of dozens of Palestinian villages and hamlets months before the start of the 1948 war. That is the reason why the surrounding Arab states got involved in that war. Towards the end of that war Operation Hiram was perpetrated to cleanse the Upper Galilee of its Palestinian population.

In the words of Israeli historian Benny Morris, “there were twenty-four small scale massacres perpetrated by the Israeli forces in 1948. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village - she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.

“The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.

"That can't be chance. It's a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres."

As Rashid Khalidi writes in his book The Iron Cage, "The flight of the Palestinian population from areas conquered by the Hagana and other Jewish forces increased under the impact of the shock of the Deir Yasin massacre, growing to a flood with the fall of Tiberias, Haifa, Jaffa, and other towns later in April and into May."

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@Moment-in-Time,

I totally agree with your opinions. I have visited the holocaust musums in Washington DC and twice to the one in Jerusalem. Also have visited Auswitz and Birkenau. I have read some books and articles about Jewish histor.
I'm only a bit surprised by the ignorance of some Jewish posters on this thread.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Please try not to misrepresent my position.

If our friend, advocate, did not embellish, he would not have too much to say in defense of Israel's intractable settlement building.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

I'm only a bit surprised by the ignorance of some Jewish posters on this thread.

But why, CI? Did you not read my post explaining why many Jewish people would not want to read in *detail* many of the horrors visited on their own during WW2? Some of us are a little squeamish, delicate. Many Jews understand what happened in Nazi land but who wants to dwell on the horrifying past and least of all the details!

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@Frank Apisa,

OMG, you are truly a mindless idiot. First you say you never said that Israel should be eliminated, and then say that it should be located elsewhere. That is tantamount to saying it should be eliminated.

I repeat that you should be eliminated. The world would do well without the likes of you.

3 Replies

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

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