Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

Yeah, that's what most people tend to do Fluff.

You have not made an effort to see both sides. You parrot the Israeli narrative to the letter. When you claim to be a dispassionate neutral you're being extremely dishonest.

You ask for evidence, then dismiss it, you were especially callous in your approach to the Bedouins.

Senor Izzyelempuja, please explain why Palestineans, if they get a state, would be allowed to have a religious homogeneous state, while Israel does have Arab Muslim citizens? Do you see a double-standard?

And, since Israel has occupied the West Bank, since some war they had to fight, in order not to be annihilated as a Zionist state, why should the land go fallow, relative to gentrification? Why do the Palestineans get to keep their neighborhoods as the low rent district, so to speak, while Jews must pay top dollar to buy into the new settlements being built? If it is not based on a double standard, please explain.

It is not really Zionism versus Palestinean nationalism. It just might be capitalism versus socialism. Some people just might be quite irritated that here is a country where Jews might be doing what the Dutch did with Holland, relative to its being a capitalistic country, against geographic odds.

The problem, from the perspective of some people, is that the Jews have become inured to antipathy towards themselves. Sort of like the Brits in WWII, or the Poles in WWII. Perhaps, you cannot see the forest for the trees? Or, your position is just ideological, and you cannot see the fallacy of the double-standard, in the goals of Palestineans having a religiously homogeneous state? Just my opinion, of course.

Don't like logic that does not agree with your ideology?

I'm am not unbiased - no one is. I am making an effort to see the Palestinian side. If I did not I would be saying the opposite of what you are saying: all Palestinians are evil and Israeli are the victims. If I am 60-40 or 70-30 biased you are 100% anti Israeli - that's the difference. An Israeli "parrot" would say "transfer the Palestinians to Jordan" - that would be the best security solution for Israel that ignores the Palestinians. I completely disagree with ideas like that one.

You never give me any evidence. You give me something you think is evidence. I ask you for Israeli laws discriminating Arabs - you give me some footage of hooligans. I can give you tons of that in the UK, ..and Canada BTW, even though much less.

I have no "approach" to the Bedouins. You're so worked up with ideology you can't listen to reason. Bedouins have the same rights as all the other citizens of Israel. Everyone in Israel has to obey municipal regulations: Jews, Arabs et al. If I set up a tent in the middle of London for years, won't it be removed?

It's called separation of state and religion. Even in many countries like Italy and South America, people are free to practice any religion they please.

Boychick, a Palestinean state would be allowed to have no citizens of other religions. Please explain the double-standard. Israel has Muslim citizens. Please explain, boychick.

So what? What any country does with religion "is their business," not Israel's.

Are Jews going to begin worrying about religion in the US, China, Japan, Germany, UK, India, South America, and the whole of the Middle East?

I've never had a problem with logic Fluff.

A religious homogeneous state? I think not. A lot of Palestinians are Christian, not to mention all the other minority religions.

You ask for specific Israeli laws discriminating against Arabs because you know there aren't any. That doesn't alter the fact that discrimination occurs on a massive scale, and when given details on Wikipedia you ignore them.

If a law isn't applied it's meaningless. Legally I'm still obliged to practice archery tomorrow. I won't, and neither will anyone else unless they're into archery.

If you admit there aren't any laws, how can you claim that the state is discriminating? So, we agree that state of Israel is a democracy that does not discriminate against any of its citizens. Some advanced countries do discriminate by law - e.g. French laws against the Muslim veil:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering

the Swiss law against mosques:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minaret_controversy_in_Switzerland

Israeli laws have none of this. So stop accusing Israel of being not democratic. Lets put a period on this issue.

Now, for the discrimination in the public behavior. There is discrimination of that sort in all of the most advanced societies you can think of. I see Canada as pretty advanced, and I still see some of that too. Again, not by law of course, but in public behavior. I don't know about any massive scales in Israel. There are separate schools for some communities - but not because the law says so. They prefer it that way. I don't think an Arabic school would let a Jewish kid in, and religious Jewish schools won't even let kids that are not religious enough - similar to Catholic schools elsewhere. I don't like that, but that has nothing to do with democracy etc.

There is a difference between a law that is not applied and a non-existing law you're trying to pass for state discrimination

I hope this will be the case, but from previous experience with Muslim majority states, the other religions don't have a lot of freedom. Not all of them - I agree, but many.

Indonesia is the fourth largest country in the world. Their majority is Muslim, but other religions are free to practice their religion - including christianity (almost 10%).

Are you telling me that if the state of Israel were established within the confines of the contiguous United States...things would be no different for them than they are were they are???



Just as it would be a "most natural place" for them to be driven out once again.

In any case, if the state stays there...war and bloodshed. So, I question it being "reasonable."






Not going to happen. And even if it did...war and bloodshed.

But that is one of the choices...and it that is the choice chosen...then that is what it is.

What a waste, though.

"Are you telling me that if the state of Israel were established within the confines of the contiguous United States...things would be no different for them than they are were they are???"

Probably different because the cultures around are different, but I don't think it would be much better. And then again, this is highly hypothetical. The only precedent of something like this I can remember were the Mormons in Utah - didn't go well.

"Just as it would be a "most natural place" for them to be driven out once again."

That's why they keep a good military. And that's why they are so cautious when it comes to security.

"In any case, if the state stays there...war and bloodshed. So, I question it being "reasonable." "

This is your conclusion based on the last 60 years. Looking at the beginning of the 20th century - Europe had no future. France was fighting Britain for 100 years at some point in the past. Greeks were fighting the Persians for centuries - so what? We just happen to be living in this specific period of time. Give it some time

And, in my opinion, there will be "war and bloodshed." in that region for a while with or without Israel. Just because the region has not fully recovered yet after European colonization, followed by USSR-USA cold-war proxy effects. Israel has very little to do with this "war and bloodshed.". I can repeat: look at Syria and Iraq - what does Israel have to do with that "war and bloodshed."?

Also, by this logic. In how many conflicts was the US ivloved since its independence? Why doesn't that give you ideas about disassembling the US and sending its citizens to all kinds of random locations on the planet? Sounds weird, right? Same goes for israel.

They are running true to their nature. According to the old testament when Moses brought the Jews back to the Holy Land from Egypt the first thing they did was start wars of conquest against the indigenous population.

Just like every other nation or religious group on the face of this planet. Can you name a religion that was never involved in any conflicts?

Don't whine if your hate campaign collapses the peace talks and denies the Palestinians a state based on 1967 borders. You'll have only yourself to blame.