63
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
0bserver
 
  2  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 03:08 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Assuming you are not being antisemitic and are just honestly not aware of the facts and the implications. I think I mentioned this already several times: the reason Israel exists is because the Jews couldn't live normal lives in Europe, North Africa, Iran etc. You say it was peaceful. Well, not so much. Jews were taxed differently in Arab countries, they were murdered in Europe in large numbers even before the Nazis. That's one thing. The other thing is that region was kept calm by empires - the Ottoman Empire, the British empire etc. After empires leave - every region becomes insane. It takes time to calm down. You see now that Egypt, Syria, Iraq etc are fighting with no relation to Israel what so ever. Empires left, USSR disappeared, the US is making sounds of a big Switzerland. That's it - now the kids are fighting among themselves without any adult supervision. The establishment of Israel just happens to coincide with the end of colonization. So two points:

1) Israel is only a minor factor in this equation. The region will be crazy for a while with or without Israel.

2) Jews have no where else to go. You see this as a crazy region, the Israelis see that as the least of all evils. Sure, you have to fight a war every so many years when the next neighbor tries to annihilate you. But at least you can fight back. Everywhere else on the planet the Jews will be left alone to be murdered in cold blood - as it happened many times before.

0bserver
 
  2  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 03:10 pm
@izzythepush,
Even when I honestly say something positive about the UK, you are picking a fight?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 03:27 pm
@0bserver,
0bserver wrote:

Assuming you are not being antisemitic and are just honestly not aware of the facts and the implications. I think I mentioned this already several times: the reason Israel exists is because the Jews couldn't live normal lives in Europe, North Africa, Iran etc. You say it was peaceful. Well, not so much. Jews were taxed differently in Arab countries, they were murdered in Europe in large numbers even before the Nazis. That's one thing. The other thing is that region was kept calm by empires - the Ottoman Empire, the British empire etc. After empires leave - every region becomes insane. It takes time to calm down. You see now that Egypt, Syria, Iraq etc are fighting with no relation to Israel what so ever. Empires left, USSR disappeared, the US is making sounds of a big Switzerland. That's it - now the kids are fighting among themselves without any adult supervision. The establishment of Israel just happens to coincide with the end of colonization. So two points:

1) Israel is only a minor factor in this equation. The region will be crazy for a while with or without Israel.

2) Jews have no where else to go. You see this as a crazy region, the Israelis see that as the least of all evils. Sure, you have to fight a war every so many years when the next neighbor tries to annihilate you. But at least you can fight back. Everywhere else on the planet the Jews will be left alone to be murdered in cold blood - as it happened many times before.




You honestly did not comment on what I wrote!

Quote a portion of what I said...and respond to that.

The area now occupied by Israel (I am not talking about Europe) had both Jews and Arabs living in it for thousands of years...and they lived in relative peace compared with how the French, Spanish, Germans, Scots, Irish, and English got along with one another.

There WAS relative peace in the specific area...prior to the creation of Israel.

Try commenting on what I wrote...and with the fact that BEFORE the creation of Israel...Jews and Arabs got along relatively peacefully IN THAT AREA.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 03:29 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I might also ask for your opinion on this:

Since Jews and their neighbors (with two exceptions that I can bring to mind) have never gotten along peacefully and well…

…is the fault for that lack of “getting along” always with the non-Jews. Are Jews always peaceful and friendly…and their neighbors always the ones who refuse to get along?
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 03:34 pm
@0bserver,
You're the one who fantasised about bombing me, not the other way round.
0bserver
 
  2  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 03:41 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I know what you're asking, and I'm trying to say that it makes no sense to rip out one part of a complex situation and ignore the rest.

"There WAS relative peace in the specific area...prior to the creation of Israel."

Like I wrote before, because it was controlled by empires - not because there was no Israel. I can repeat: the establishment of Israel only happens to coincide with the end of the colonial era. That makes you think that it is Israel that causes the unrest. I'm trying to tell you that it is the end of colonization that causes the unrest - for proof look at Syria, Iraq etc.

And even lets imagine some hypothetical situation in which Israel is the only place in the Middle East which is fighting. You say - good , get rid of Israel there will be no problems. But you refuse to go one step further and ask what will happen to the Jews then? I can tell you what - look at the pogroms in Russia, the Spanish inquisition, and the Holocaust. If you keep insisting that this is unrelated - I have no answers for you
0 Replies
 
0bserver
 
  2  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 03:45 pm
@izzythepush,
what? when ever did I fantasize about anything like that? I'm trying to show you how much Israeli case is more difficult than what UK has with Afghanistan. No Afghan rockets are hitting the UK, and still you can't end the occupation. Israel is getting constantly hit by thousands of rockets and suicide bombers for years now, and still they are making efforts to end the occupation. I wish you no harm - just showing you how unfairly you're treating Israel.
0bserver
 
  2  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 03:46 pm
@Frank Apisa,
OK. Getting closer to good old antisemitism. So, your solution?

The Jews are doing just that - building a state away from all the people they kept annoying for years. Aren't you happy?
izzythepush
 
  0  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 03:48 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

I might also ask for your opinion on this:

Since Jews and their neighbors (with two exceptions that I can bring to mind) have never gotten along peacefully and well…

…is the fault for that lack of “getting along” always with the non-Jews. Are Jews always peaceful and friendly…and their neighbors always the ones who refuse to get along?



Actually Frank, Jews and Moslems have got along quite well for a long time. My daughter's best friend is a Sephardic Jew from Israel. Actually, he's British, but that's where his roots lie. His family had lived in Israel for hundreds of years, peacefully with their Palestinian neighbours, then the Zionists from Europe and America turned up. His family left when Israel became a nation, the Sephardic Jews aren't treated that well by their fairer skinned brethren.

Observer kicked up a load of dust earlier on about Gibraltar. What he didn't mention is that Gibraltar has a large population of Sephardic Jews who want to remain British. As they're Jewish, they can go to live in Israel any time they want, but they don't, they'd rather stay British in Gibraltar.

Israel is about white European and American colonists riding roughshod over the darker skinned indigenous people, Christian, Moslem and Jew. It's the same as every other discredited colonial exercise. The only difference is that they can play the anti-Semitism card. South Africa couldn't, that's the only reason why Israel still gets away with it.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 03:50 pm
@0bserver,
0bserver wrote:

OK. Getting closer to good old antisemitism. So, your solution?

The Jews are doing just that - building a state away from all the people they kept annoying for years. Aren't you happy?


No anti-Semitism at all...just a question.

Which you did not answer.

And the "aren't you happy" nonsense...is just that...nonsense.

Why is it that any discussion of the problems of Israel...or of Jews...always seems to deteriorate into charges of anti-Semitism; anti-Jew; or anti-Israel?

NONE of those things apply to me.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 03:51 pm
@0bserver,
http://able2know.org/topic/127639-57#post-5427489
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 03:53 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

I might also ask for your opinion on this:

Since Jews and their neighbors (with two exceptions that I can bring to mind) have never gotten along peacefully and well…

…is the fault for that lack of “getting along” always with the non-Jews. Are Jews always peaceful and friendly…and their neighbors always the ones who refuse to get along?



Actually Frank, Jews and Moslems have got along quite well for a long time. My daughter's best friend is a Sephardic Jew from Israel. Actually, he's British, but that's where his roots lie. His family had lived in Israel for hundreds of years, peacefully with their Palestinian neighbours, then the Zionists from Europe and America turned up. His family left when Israel became a nation, the Sephardic Jews aren't treated that well by their fairer skinned brethren.

Observer kicked up a load of dust earlier on about Gibraltar. What he didn't mention is that Gibraltar has a large population of Sephardic Jews who want to remain British. As they're Jewish, they can go to live in Israel any time they want, but they don't, they'd rather stay British in Gibraltar.

Israel is about white European and American colonists riding roughshod over the darker skinned indigenous people, Christian, Moslem and Jew. It's the same as every other discredited colonial exercise. The only difference is that they can play the anti-Semitism card. South Africa couldn't, that's the only reason why Israel still gets away with it.


I mentioned two exceptions in my comments, Izzy.

The two exceptions I see are:

The Palestine before the creation of the state of Israel there.

Spain, during the occupation of the Moors.

Other than those two exeptions...mostly Jews and their neighbors have not gotten along very well at all.

My question had to do with the "why" of that.

Is the problem always (or primarily) with the non-Jews...is the problem always (or primarily) with the Jews...or are both culpable?
0bserver
 
  2  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 03:56 pm
@izzythepush,
"Israel is about white European and American colonists riding roughshod over the darker skinned indigenous people, Christian, Moslem and Jew. ."

Ok, I got it - you are just evil. You hate Jews so much you're willing to make up any lies. I keep insisting : show me Israeli laws that discriminate whites against blacks. Show me laws that discriminate Jews against Arabs or vice verse. You know these are lies. I don't know why you keep repeating them. I'm getting tired of this.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 03:56 pm
@0bserver,
Are you saying all those rocket attacks are unprovoked? That Israel doesn't kill Palestinians with guns, missiles grenades, before Palestinians fire a glorified firework back at Israel, because if you are, you're not telling the truth.

What should Palestinians do when they're spat on, held at check points for hours on end, threatened with rifles, beaten and killed? You seem to think they should just submissively accept their lot as a slaves.
0bserver
 
  2  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 03:57 pm
@izzythepush,
Where does it say I'm wishing for that? Stop picking fights for no good reason
izzythepush
 
  0  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 04:01 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Since Cromwell allowed the Jews back into Britain they've got on pretty well with the rest of us. We had a Jewish prime minister in the 19th Century.
0 Replies
 
0bserver
 
  2  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 04:01 pm
@izzythepush,
1. I can repeat the Gaza example again: Israel left Gaza completely - no soldiers left, no provocations. What followed were thousands of rockets from Gaza

2. So you think UK soldiers don't shoot Afghan people? Do you think there is not a single check point in Afghanistan?

3. No one spits on, beats and kills random Palestinians. The terrorists who launch rockets get killed and for a good reason.

4. No one is a slave. They should do what the Irish did - get an agreement and start living normal lives.
0bserver
 
  2  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 04:03 pm
@Frank Apisa,
OK. emotions aside. Lets assume it's the Jewish fault that they upset so many people. I don't know that for a fact, but lets just assume that. What do you suggest? Make a country for them away from all the people they upset, right? Well that country is called Israel
0bserver
 
  2  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 04:07 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You say "just a question".

Would it also be just a question to ask if pretty women get raped more often no matter where they go? So, maybe it's their fault? Would that be a legitimate question too according to your logic?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Sat 31 Aug, 2013 04:09 pm
@0bserver,
They're not lies at all. You refuse to accept the truth. Here it is, but you'll ignore it, pretend it doesn't happen, and call people who tell the truth evil. The only other person who uses that term so freely is Oralboy, and he fantasises about killing babies.

Quote:
Israeli society in general – and Ashkenazi Jews in particular – have been described as holding discriminatory attitudes towards Jews of Middle Eastern and North African descent, known as Mizrahi Jews, Sephardic Jews, and Oriental Jews. A variety of Mizrahi critics of Israeli policy have cited "past ill-treatment, including the maabarot, the squalid tent cities into which Mizrahim were placed upon arrival in Israel; the humiliation of Moroccan and other Mizrahi Jews when Israeli immigration authorities shaved their heads and sprayed their bodies with the pesticide DDT; the socialist elite's enforced secularization; the destruction of traditional family structure, and the reduced status of the patriarch by years of poverty and sporadic unemployment" as examples of mistreatment. In September 1997, Israeli Labor Party leader Ehud Barak made a high-profile apology to Oriental Jews in Netivot stating:
We must admit to ourselves [that] the inner fabric of communal life was torn. Indeed, sometimes the intimate fabric of family life was torn. Much suffering was inflicted on the immigrants and that suffering was etched in their hearts, as well as in the hearts of their children and grandchildren. There was no malice on the part of those bringing the immigrants here—on the contrary, there was much goodwill—but pain was inflicted nevertheless. In acknowledgement of this suffering and pain, and out of identification with the sufferers and their descendants, I hereby ask forgiveness in my own name and in the name of the historical Labor movement.
Barak's address also said that during the 1950s, Mizrahi immigrants were "made to feel that their own traditions were inferior to those of the dominant Ashkenazi [European-origin] Israelis [Alex Weingrod's paraphrase]." Several prominent Labor party figures, including Teddy Kollek and Shimon Peres, distanced themselves from the apology while agreeing that mistakes were made during the immigration period.

The cultural differences between Mizrahi and Ashkenazi Jews impacted the degree and rate of assimilation into Israeli society, and sometimes the divide between Eastern European and Middle Eastern Jews was quite sharp. Segregation, especially in the area of housing, limited integration possibilities over the years. Intermarriage between Ashkenazim and Mizrahim is increasingly common in Israel, and by the late 1990s 28% of all Israeli children had multi-ethnic parents (up from 14% in the 1950s). A 1983 research found that children of inter-ethnic marriages in Israel enjoyed improved socio-economic status.

Although social integration is constantly improving, disparities persist. A study conducted by the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics (ICBS), Mizrahi Jews are less likely to pursue academic studies than Ashkenazi Jews. Israeli-born Ashkenazi are up to twice more likely to study in a university than Israeli-born Mizrahim. Furthermore, the percentage of Mizrahim who seek a university education remains low compared to second-generation immigrant groups of Ashkenazi origin, such as Russians. According to a survey by the Adva Center, the average income of Ashkenazim was 36 percent higher than that of Mizrahim in 2004.

Some claim that the education system discriminates against Jewish minorities from North Africa and the Middle East, and one source suggests that "ethnic prejudice against Mizrahi Jews is a relatively general phenomenon, not limited to the schooling process".

There was a case in 2010, when a Haredi school system, where Sephardi and Mizrahi students were sometimes excluded or segregated. In 2010, the Israeli supreme court sent a strong message against discrimination in a case involving the Slonim Hassidic sect of the Ashkenazi, ruling that segregation between Ashkenazi and Sephardi students in a school is illegal. They argue that they seek "to maintain an equal level of religiosity, not from racism." Responding to the charges, the Slonim Haredim invited Sephardi girls to school, and added in a statement: “All along, we said it's not about race, but the High Court went out against our rabbis, and therefore we went to prison."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel#Sephardi_and_Mizrahi_.28Middle_Eastern.29
 

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