Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

If you want people who are not Israeli citizens and who don't live in Israel to vote - like Palestinian territory population. You should let the Afghan population vote in the UK. By your reasoning, the UK is not a democracy if they don't' vote

Are you stupid or something? The Palestinians can't vote for the government that controls their every movement, just some pseudo government with little power.

Yes, I'm stupid and you are a genius. Tell me how is this different from the toothless Afghan government under UK occupation?

Evil is when you tell deliberate lies, make sweeping accusations with no evidence, and refuse to face facts.

I will try to be reasonable and explain this once again. There are 2 separate things:

1) Occupation of the West Bank by Israeli forces. This is bad and has to stop. It is not part of Israel, Israel has no business being there.
2) There is a country of Israel, which has a full democratic system. Regardless of what this democratic system is doing in its conflicts with the neighbors.

Points 1) and 2) are completely unrelated. If you can't see the difference between 1) and 2) like people who can't see the difference between Arab Israelis citizens and Arabs from the Palestinian territories - there's nothing I can do to help

Which is what you are doing every now and then. You really don't know the difference between the state of Israel and the neighboring Palestinian territories?

BTW, this is exactly the view of the extreme right in Israel - are you with them?

There are no bordering Palestinian territories. There is one big block occupied by Israel, and a Bantustan under heavy siege.

I know the difference between the two countries, it's Israel that has problems telling them apart.

Under UK occupation? What about America?

The difference is that the Afghan government is taking control over more and more of the duties of government, and there's a timetable for withdrawal.

OK. So we agree then that Israel is a democracy. This democratic state happens to have a huge problem of occupying the West Bank - that's a problem I'm not going to deny. And you shouldn't also deny the ongoing conflict very much related to that occupation. My hope is that both the conflict and the occupation will end at the same time with some sort of agreement.

But statements about Israel not being a democracy are wrong and have nothing to do with the issues above.

And there's a clear border by the way - some of it is on the Green line, some of it not exactly, but I don't know what you mean by one block.

Sure, include all the allies. That doesn't change the main point.

"Afghan government is taking control over more and more of the duties of government, and there's a timetable for withdrawal."

Right, just like Oslo agreement, Road maps of all sorts etc for the Palestinians.

It's nothing like the Oslo agreement. In five years time we'll be long gone, but Israel will still be occupying the West Bank. The longest occupation in modern times.

The border only applies to the slaves, sorry Palestinians, the citizens don't have to pay them any attention.

Can you see the future? I don't know if Afghanistan will be left alone in five years. And how long do you think it would take to leave Afghanistan if there were Afghan rockets constantly hitting Southampton?

All I can tell from this post is that you are emotional. I have no idea what information it conveys.

I think you're technically incorrect about the longest occupation too. It's been there since 1967. For how long is Tibet occupied? Western Sahara?

The region is being formed. How long did it take Europe to stop fighting?

Everyone is emotional in this discussion, Observer...the topic powers emotion like electricity powers light bulbs. Both sides are arguing from strong emotion...rather than from pure reason.

Something I'd like you to comment on if you are willing...in an unemotional way, of course:

Prior to the establishment of the state of Israel in that area...Jews and non-Jews lived in relative peace for millennia. It was not Utopia…and there were problems…but compared with the wars and hatred of Europeans for each other during that time…IT WAS RELATIVELY PEACEFUL THERE…with everyone (relatively) getting along quite nicely.

The state of Israel came into existence there…and the area erupted into hatred, fighting, maiming, and carnage.

Why are solutions that require cooperation and agreement between enemies being considered…while the obvious solution (ending the state of Israel in that area) is never even discussed.

The existence of the state of Israel is the single most important item that must be negotiated…yet it is NEVER on the table. The Arabs must make that concession…and negotiations must start from that point…not from the point before the state of Israel was created.

Your thoughts, Observer?

The IRA were bombing the UK. We decided that spraying their children with white phosphorus was not the best way to bring about peace.

Please, I wish the Palestinian terrorists were 10 times as bad as the IRA. I remember seeing on the news IRA announcing they were going to blow up a building kindly asking everyone to leave. The Palestinian ones are happy to blow up buses full of kids and shoot babies intentionally. So that you don't complain that I don't give you facts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Shalhevet_Pass
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks

And I don't remember the British being too soft on the IRA. Israel is not spraying anyone with anything. It is hunting Hamas terrorists, who often hide behind children. The IRA probably weren't as courageous as Hamas to do the same. It's interesting that now I hear people from Cairo saying: "we didn't believe Israel when it said Hamas were using children as shields, now we see the Muslim Brotherhood do the same here". The Egyptians are now not as friendly to the Hamas. It takes time to realize the facts.


But in any case, I hope some agreement will be reached with the Palestinians - similar to the IRA one. One thing I have to admit, I do admire the way it became calm and quite in Ireland. Lets hope the Middle East is just as wise.

You must be disappointed that they're not firing rockets on Southampton.

You're quite right the IRA, never deliberately killed children, why don't you tell Colin Parry? He must be delusional.