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Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 29 Aug, 2013 06:30 pm
@Advocate,
No, they are not. Why are Palestinians required to have green license plates that restricts where they can drive their cars? Many have to go on approved routes that adds miles to their trips. Check points on most roads make sure they follow the rules.

FYI, that's not freedom or democracy by any sense of that word.

Do you know what an "apartheid state" is?
Quote:
Crime of apartheid
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Apartheid system)
This article is about the crime of Apartheid as defined in international law. For the system of racial segregation that formerly existed in South Africa, see

The crime of Apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."
JTT
 
  3  
Thu 29 Aug, 2013 06:45 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Do you know what an "apartheid state" is?


Yup, the USA for most of its history.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  3  
Thu 29 Aug, 2013 06:53 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Do you know what an "apartheid state" is?



Quote:

Published on Wednesday, June 9, 2004 by the Boston Globe
Reagan's Heart of Darkness
by Derrick Z. Jackson

PRESIDENT Bush proclaimed: "Ronald Reagan believed that God takes the side of justice and that America has a special calling to oppose tyranny and defend freedom." In the first three days of news reports on the death of the former president, not a single major American newspaper, television station, or politician has dared to exhume this counterpoint to the Reagan's legacy: "Immoral, evil, and totally un-Christian."

These were the words of Bishop Desmond Tutu, spoken on Capitol Hill at a House hearing in late 1984. It was just after Reagan's easy reelection. Tutu had just been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his nonviolent struggle against apartheid in South Africa. Throughout the United States a rising number of Americans were calling for American companies to stop doing business there.

Reagan ignored them. The president of so-called sunny optimism attempted to blind Americans with his policy of "constructive engagement" with the white minority regime in Pretoria. All constructive engagment did was give the white minority more time to mow down the black majority in the streets and keep dreamers of democracy, such as Nelson Mandela, behind bars.

In the weeks leading up to his appearance on Capitol Hill, Tutu said in speeches that it seemed that the Reagan White House saw "blacks as expendable" in South Africa. The white government forced black people from prized lands and into horrid townships. Migratory labor laws split familes for 11 months at a time. Education was gutted for black children. There was virtually no due process for black defendants. Tutu said it was "reminiscent of Hitler's Aryan madness." Tutu declared that "constructive engagement is an abomination, an unmitigated disaster."

On Capitol Hill, Tutu became a public relations disaster for Reagan. Tutu started off the hearing by saying apartheid itself "is evil, is immoral, is un-Christian, without remainder." I was there, and all breathing stopped, without remainder. Tutu continued:

"In my view, the Reagan administration's support and collaboration with it is equally immoral, evil, and totally un-Christian. . . . You are either for or against apartheid and not by rhetoric. You are either in favor of evil or you are in favor of good. You are either on the side of the oppressed or on the side of the oppressor. You can't be neutral."

Tutu received an unprecedented standing ovation by the committee. Even Reagan's Republican allies told the South African Embassy they would reluctantly support sanctions if Pretoria did not move to end apartheid.

Reagan was not moved. Over the remainder of his presidency, at least 3,000 people would die, mostly at the hands of the South African police and military. Another 20,000, including 6,000 children, according to one estimate by a human rights group, would be arrested under "state of emergency" decrees.

Yet Reagan had the gall to say in 1985 that the "reformist administration" of South Africa had "eliminated the segregation that we once had in our own country." In 1986, Reagan gave a speech where he said Mandela should be released but denounced sanctions with crocodile tears, claiming that they would hurt black workers, who were already ridiculously impoverished. Reagan's go-slow speech was denounced by Tutu, who said: "I found it quite nauseating. I think the West, for my part, can go to hell. . . . Your president is the pits as far as blacks are concerned. He sits there like the great, big white chief of old."

Later in 1986, Reagan made his greatest demonstration yet that black bodies were "expendable." Congress had finally had enough of the carnage to vote for limited sanctions. Reagan vetoed them. Congress overrode the veto. Reagan proceded to put no muscle behind the sanctions. Mandela remained in jail and at least 2,000 political prisoners remained detained without trial.

In 1987 Reagan published a report that said additional sanctions "would not be helpful." The gleeful South African foreign minister, Roelof Botha, said that Reagan "and his administration have an understanding of the reality of South Africa."

Reagan's and Botha's "reality" was rendered a fantasy by the force of world opinion and a more enlightened leadership inside South Africa. Only a year after Reagan left office, Mandela was released. One can only wonder how much sooner he would have been released and how many lives would have been saved had Reagan not behaved like the white chief of old.

President Bush said Reagan believed God was on the side of justice. On South Africa, Reagan was on the side of one of the most demonic governments on the face of the earth. He chose to assist tyranny and ignore brutality. Ronald Reagan's death has been followed by relentless descriptions of him as a president of sunny optimism. On South Africa he was no sunshine. He was the cloud who dimmed the skies as apartheid rained death upon black people.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0609-03.htm


0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Thu 29 Aug, 2013 06:59 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Duh, those Pals don't live in Israel.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 29 Aug, 2013 07:01 pm
@Advocate,
Very funny! Our Jewish local tour director told us about the green license plates required by Palestinians in Israel. That was last year. I guess times do change.

BTW, she was a very good tour director. When we cruised up to Haifa, she drove up from Jerusalem to show us around Haifa and Acco.
Advocate
 
  0  
Thu 29 Aug, 2013 07:11 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Very funny! Our Jewish local tour director told us about the green license plates required by Palestinians in Israel. That was last year. I guess times do change.

BTW, she was a very good tour director. When we cruised up to Haifa, she drove up from Jerusalem to show us around Haifa and Acco.


You misunderstood the guide. Both Jewish and Arab Israelis use yellow plates. See http://nigelparry.com/diary/ramallah/plates.html

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 29 Aug, 2013 07:16 pm
@Advocate,
Interesting. The heading for your posted article starts with..
Quote:
Ramallah Diary
15 November 1995
"Car license plates: the road to apartheid"
One of the first things I noticed when I first visited this country was the variety of colours and symbols on car license plates. As I began to understand the system and see how it worked in practice, it has always remained with me as one of the most visual examples of the all-pervasive nature of the Israeli military occupation.


That confirms what I've been saying.

In a free country, everybody has the same license plate regardless of which race, ethnicity, religion, or any other grouping you wish to add.

It's all about identifying the controlled group.
0 Replies
 
0bserver
 
  0  
Thu 29 Aug, 2013 07:25 pm
@Advocate,
Don't let the facts confuse people. They want to believe in apartheid - let them. I wonder if those people see a Ukrainian citizen driving a car into Austria with a different color license plate from an Austrian one, will they scream "apartheid" too?

A billion-people Muslim PR machine is much stronger than any facts. No point in arguing.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Thu 29 Aug, 2013 07:32 pm
@0bserver,
FYI, this thread is about "ISRAEL." If you want to talk about another country, please start a new thread with an appropriate title.

It seems "observing" is not one of your skills.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Fri 30 Aug, 2013 12:04 am
@0bserver,
You've failed to address any facts at all. Like to discuss Yitzhak Shamir's glorious past, or are you going to run scared again?

A Ukrainian car has Ukrainian plates, if a Ukrainian buys a car in Austria he can drive around with Austrian plates. And most importantly, the EU is not occupying the Ukraine.

0bserver
 
  1  
Fri 30 Aug, 2013 12:42 am
@izzythepush,
Just got back from vacation - no idea what you mean by "run scared". I don't remember the discussion about Shamir. He was one angry fellow and I'm sure the British don't like him, but he was angry for a reason. Or maybe you're also going to deny hangings of Jewish underground members in the prison of Akko by the British. In contrast, no Palestinians were ever hanged in Israeli prisons.

"A Ukrainian car has Ukrainian plates" - Good. A Palestinian car has Palestinian licence plates.

"Ukrainian buys a car in Austria he can drive around with Austrian plates." - you mean an ethnic Ukrainian with Austrian citizenship?
Sure, then an ethnic Arab Israeli who buys a car in Israel can drive around with Israeli plates.

All Israeli citizens have equal rights regardless of their ethnicity. Palestinians are not Israeli citizens and are not Israeli residents - they live in the Palestinian territories in the Palestinian Authority. Just like Ontario residents drive around Michigan with Ontario plates. What does all this have to do with oppression etc? When people say that Arabs in Israel have different licence plates from Jews - that sounds like state discrimination. But that is just not true. I don't know if people do this out of ignorance or on purpose to mislead and incite.

"And most importantly, the EU is not occupying the Ukraine." - True. But this is a separate issue completely. Just like some countries are occupying Iraq and Afghanistan now - it's war related and very bad and I hope there will be no occupation anywhere, but has nothing to do with apartheid or anything of that sort.

On a different topic: are you proud of your House of Commons today?
0bserver
 
  1  
Fri 30 Aug, 2013 03:03 am
@izzythepush,
Do you think the vehicles of the UK forces occupying Afghanistan have the same licence plates as those of local Afghan cars:

https://www.gov.uk/uk-forces-operations-in-afghanistan

So, by your reasoning: why doesn't the UK allow freedom of movement into the UK for all Afghanistan residents because UK military is present there, just like you demand freedom of movement into Israel for residents of the Palestinian territories?
izzythepush
 
  0  
Fri 30 Aug, 2013 08:29 am
@0bserver,
You don't half talk rot. We're in Afghanistan in a supporting role, the Afghan government is in charge. We haven't sent a load of right wing settlers there to harass the local population. We're leaving Afghanistan. You're not leaving the West Bank.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Fri 30 Aug, 2013 08:32 am
@0bserver,
You know exactly what we were discussing, the Lehi trying to make deals with Nazi Germany. You've not commented on that. I remember British soldiers kidnapped, tortured and murdered by Israeli terrorists.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 30 Aug, 2013 09:49 am
@0bserver,
You wrote,
Quote:
All Israeli citizens have equal rights regardless of their ethnicity.


Where did you learn this nonsense? To claim something that the world community calls illegal take over of Palestinian lands by their expanding settlements shows how ignorant you are! They have no legal rights.

Palestinians have green license plates that restricts their movement in Israel.

Many Palestinians live in ghettos and prisons fenced in by prison walls and watch towers.

I have seen these myself when I visited Israel twice, and have taken pictures of those walls and fences.

That's the reason why Israel is called an "apartheid state."

No other country on earth has those restrictions of one ethnic or racial group - not even in Communist countries.
Advocate
 
  1  
Fri 30 Aug, 2013 10:46 am
@cicerone imposter,
It is really impossible to have an intellectual discussion with you.

You resist the information that Israel treats Israeli Pals differently from non-Israeli Pals.

The incessant attacks on Jews and Israel by the Pals caused the fences to be built. If one's neighbor made a habit of attacking him or her, the person would surely be justified in erecting a fence.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 30 Aug, 2013 10:51 am
@Advocate,
It depends on what you mean by "intellectual." I post what I have personally observed during visits to Israel. They're not a figment of my imagination. They are supported by international human rights organizations.

If I post something that is wrong or questionable, it's up to you to point them out and provide a reliable source to refute what I say.

I believe that's intellectual enough from my POV.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 30 Aug, 2013 11:16 am
@cicerone imposter,
This is one of those Palestinian villages near Jerusalem with walls around it. Can you see the barbed wire so people can't escape over the wall?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/imposter222/20131JANCubaA2012-10-26008.jpg

More pictures of Palestinian village walls in Jerusalem. From Wiki.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=palestinian+villages+in+jerusalem+with+walls&qpvt=palestinian+villages+in+jerusalem+with+walls&FORM=IGRE


Can you really continue to claim that Palestinians have equal rights in Israel?

0 Replies
 
0bserver
 
  1  
Fri 30 Aug, 2013 11:18 am
@izzythepush,
"We're in Afghanistan in a supporting role,"
Do the Afghan freedom fighters shooting at UK "supporters" know that?

"the Afghan government is in charge"
Just like the Palestinian Authority is in charge in the Palestinian territories

" We haven't sent a load of right wing settlers there to harass the local population."

No one sent Israeli settlers to the Palestinian territories - they just decided to go there. Are you 100% sure no UK civilians ever went to Afghanistan to live there?

And you had your share of sending settlers all over the planet for centuries - a lion share of all settlers who ever existed.

"We're leaving Afghanistan. " - Talk to me when there is not a single UK soldier on Afghan soil. Until then you're not leaving anything. On the other hand Israel did leave Gaza completely - not a single soldier left.

"You're not leaving the West Bank." - I'm on a different continent. Israel did leave Gaza, and the West Bank would follow if not for thousands of rockets from Gaza telling them it was a bad idea to leave. And they are trying to leave now, unless Palestinian activists like you spoil the talks and prevent them from leaving.

BTW, how many Afghan suicide bombers blew up busses in London? How many thousands of Afghan rockets landed in the UK. Last time rockets landed in London, I remember the allies taking good care of Dresden etc.




cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Fri 30 Aug, 2013 11:23 am
@0bserver,
Your tangents do not belong on this thread.
This thread is about ISRAEL.
0 Replies
 
 

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