Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

MontereyJack wrote:
Roman citizens were the indigenous inhabitants for several centuries.

No. The Romans were invaders.

Even before the Constitutio Antoniniana, many inhabitants of the colonies as well as allies got Roman citizenship (example: Paulus). And from the Constitutio Antoniniana (also called the Edict of Caracalla)) onwards all free men in the Roman Empire were to be given full Roman citizenship and all free women in Empire were given the same rights as Roman women.

http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/a_zps46535022.jpg

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@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

MontereyJack wrote:
And since Islam developed, the inhabitants of the region for centuries have been primarily Moslems.

Yes. Muslims like to steal other people's holy sites.

Ever been to a museum and looked at the fat loot made by "Christians" during the Middle Ages? Treasury rooms of cathedrals are full of holy Muslim artifacts, too.

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@izzythepush,

I brought it up to show the analogy, and how much Israel is more moral than the UK and yes, the USA too.

Why do you call half of the subjects I bring up distractions? The Holocaust is a distraction .. everything that goes against your agenda is a distraction.

No. You rehouse a kitten next door to well-known animal abusers, who set it on fire.

"They appeared to be safe ". This is funny. Did you ask them if they felt safe? Or did you decide the "appeared to be safe" for them? If it was so safe, why did they run in the first place?

Why do you ignore what I wrote about that Israeli commission? Do you disagree with what I said about him being guilty only of not preventing the murder - similar to what UK, US, Canada and others did in the case of St. Luis?

Are you saying Sharon was guilty of committing the actual murder in Sabra and Shatila?

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@0bserver,

The quotation was from your link. Belgium France and Holland were not known for persecuting Jews in 1939. Nobody in the UK had a crystal ball. According to the GPI the only countries less moral than Israel are, The Ivory Coast, Yemen, Central African Republic, North Korea, Russia, Democratic Republic of Congo, Pakistan, Sudan, Iraq, Syria, Somalia and Afghanistan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Peace_Index

I ignore what you wrote about Sharon because it's irrelevant. You brought it up to muddy the waters, if you have a problem with the findings of the Israeli Commission you write to them. Or this a case where you only support those Israelis who share your warped version of reality?

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@izzythepush,

Here you would immediately accuse me of lies.Where does it say anything on morality?

What does "peacefulness" have to do with morality? "GPI investigates the extent to which countries are involved in ongoing domestic and international conflicts". If I keep throwing rocks into your window every morning - you'll be "involved in ongoing domestic conflict", and thus (by your logic) an immoral person. How do you come up with stuff like this?

Did you notice on the GPI map, the blue countries are either surrounded by blue countries, or by oceans?

"if you have a problem with the findings of the Israeli Commission you write to them"

Why would I have a problem with them? They are being exceptionally responsible, self-critical and moral. I have a problem with the rest of the world about not having similar commissions. E.g. Obama's red lines on chemical weapons in Syria. See, criticism of the US

And it wasn't "my" link - it's Wikipedia. For all I know, it could have been edited in the last 5 minutes

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@0bserver,

It is your link. You posted it.

I've pointed out your lies. You lied when you said British troops sent shiploads of Jews from Haifa to Nazi Germany, and you lied when you said that the Irish do not have the same rights as British nationals in the UK.

I'm sure those aren't the only lies, but I've really not got time to trawl through your posts. If you want to talk about morality what about Yitzhak Shamir, member of the Lehi, who wanted to fight alongside Nazi Germany against the British during WW2? By your logic he must have known all about the final solution, but was more concerned about his own political career than the lives of Jews in occupied Europe.

Despite all of this he still became prime minister. The hero's welcome given to Nazi Vorster doesn't seem that strange when you consider all that.

Quote:

During World War II, Lehi initially sought alliance with Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, offering to fight alongside them against the British in return for the transfer of all Jews from Nazi-occupied Europe to Palestine. On the belief that Nazi Germany was a lesser enemy of the Jews than Britain, Lehi twice attempted to form an alliance with the Nazis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

1 Reply

@0bserver,

0bserver wrote:

I have a problem with the rest of the world about not having similar commissions.

You do know that different countries have different political and juridical systems, don't you?
If here the government establishes a 'commission', I have always a faint stinking impression: why didn't they want a Parliament's committee of enquiry?

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@0bserver,

0bserver wrote:

"if you have a problem with the findings of the Israeli Commission you write to them"

Why would I have a problem with them? They are being exceptionally responsible, self-critical and moral.

So stop whining about Ariel Sharon.

Quote:

In 1983 the commission established by the Israeli Government found that as Minister of Defense during the 1982 Lebanon War Sharon bore "personal responsibility" for the massacre by Lebanese militias of Palestinian civilians in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila, for his having disregarded the prospect of acts of bloodshed by the Phalangists against the population of the refugee camps, and not having prevented their entry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Sharon

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@izzythepush,

This is frustrating. How many times do I have to repeat this? I am not complaining about Sharon or that Comission.

I am complaining about the lack of similar comissions everywhere else!

"For having disregarded the prospect of acts of bloodshed" applies to so many people, including the case of St Luis. Still, not a lot of comissions.

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@Walter Hinteler,

This point I don't understand: the commission is made of senior judges usually. Why does it matter that it was the government to establish it and not the legislators?

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@0bserver,

0bserver wrote:

I am complaining about the lack of similar comissions everywhere else!

As I've tried to explain: other countries have different parliamentary and juridical systems.

Here, in Germany, the government is controlled by the parliament. If something happens, which can't be resolved (usually by the opposition, because they are in minority) a parliamentary committee of inquiry is set up. Such a committee here has as much power as a court.

Besides that, we have the Federal Court of Constitution, which quite often is used by parliamentary and non-parliamentary opposition parties to correct the government's decisions.

1 Reply

@0bserver,

0bserver wrote:

Why does it matter that it was the government to establish it and not the legislators?

The government establishes a commission to correct or overview governmental work, misbehaviour or whatever.

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@izzythepush,

Oh, please. I can play this silly game too:

You, sir, are a liar. I never said: "the Irish do not have the same rights as British nationals in the UK" as you falsely claim with your evil lies.

What I did was just to ask: "What rights do the the citizens of Ireland have in the UK?"

Now, after pointing out your obvious lie, I know that most of your statements are probably just lies.

...this is childish, and boring.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Sure. I don't mean the exact same mechanism. I mean some form of investigation of politicians - not only for crimes, but for not preventing crimes when they have the power to do so

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@0bserver,

Okay. But nevertheless you are complaining about the lack of similar commissions everywhere else although most (if not all) countries have such control mechanisms?

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@Walter Hinteler,

Do they investigate inaction of political leaders? Like in the case of Syria for example.

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@0bserver,

0bserver wrote:

Do they investigate inaction of political leaders?

That's exactly oneof the reasons why those committees are established ... they can order witnesses to testimonies, hear experts etc etc

0bserver wrote:

Like in the case of Syria for example.

I don't the relevant Syrian laws to give here an answer - actually, I know nothing about it.

If you mean that German politicians should be investigated about the "case of Syria", I really can't imagine why it could or should be done.

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@0bserver,

It is mostly because you don't understand a lot of things. When someone as uninformed as yourself calls me a liar I really don't give a monkeys.

What's telling is that you refuse to comment on the Lehi. Now, unlike you when discussing the British in 1939, I'm not going accuse the Lehi of having a crystal ball, they couldn't have known about the final solution, but they knew all about Kristallnacht, and it still didn't stop them trying to strike a deal with Nazi Germany. And Shamir's Nazi dealing past didn't stop him from being elected prime minister.

Maybe you didn't categorically say that the Irish have less rights than UK citizens but you certainly suggested as much. The fact that you could do so, so confidently, from a position of ignorance speaks volumes.

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@0bserver,

What you're trying to do is to go on tangents to take away from the primary target of this thread. You are a joke, and your intentions are not honorable in any way. We have caught you in lies many times, and you try to skirt the facts we present to you.

You do not have any humanity left in your soul; you care not one iota for the Palestinians in Israel. You can't even accept that they do not have equal rights in that country.

Your information and perceptions are out of sink with all the international human rights groups - and many on this thread.

I have been to Israel twice. How many times have you visited that country?

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@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

But still, that's the choice.

Says you.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Further ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians by the Zionists won't be allowed by the international community.

If the Palestinians reject peace again, it will be the only option left.

Nuh-uh

oralloy wrote:

The US and Israel will come to accept that reality. And then the US will look the other way and let Israel do what they have to.

Says you.

oralloy wrote:

The rest of the world will not be able to do anything but whine piteously. And earplugs are a great solution to excessive whining.

Nuh-uh

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Genetic research is very clear on the fact that the Palestinians are not descendants of the Hebrews/Israelites. They are descendants of one of the other four Iron Age cultures that sprung up from the ashes after the collapse of Canaanite civilization.

Where’s the research?

http://able2know.org/topic/187766-2#post-5107700

If you’re referring to the article that max cites, it points to the fact that "Jews" from other parts of the world are mostly people from those areas with Semitic admixture.

Palestinians exhibit some admixture from European and Arabic peoples that went to Palestine.

Where in that article does it state that the Palestinians are descendants of one of the other four Iron Age cultures that sprung up from the ashes after the collapse of Canaanite civilization, but not Hebrews and Israelites?

oralloy wrote:

Yes. They were part of the same population during the Bronze Age.

And well into the present. The handful of Arab Jews that were in Palestine at the time of the Zionist arrogation were the same basic people as the Gentile Palestinians.

The Zionists were Europeans with Semitic admixture.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
References to long gone ancient kingdoms are irrelevant to genetic studies.

Wrong. When genetic studies show that two populations were part of the Canaanite populace during the Bronze Age, but then diverged and were two separate populations during the Iron Age, a look at the various populations that were Iron Age descendants of the Canaanites is highly relevant.

Where are these genetic studies that show this supposed divergence of the population during the Iron Age?

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
ridiculous references to “the Kingdom of Israel” notwithstanding.

Nothing ridiculous about me referring to science and history.

What’s ridiculous is you conflating genetic research with ancient history and religious mythologies.

Nothing ridiculous about me conflating genetic research with ancient history.

Uh-huh

oralloy wrote:

The fact that you pretend that "history and science" is "religion and mythology" does not mean I am conflating religion and mythology with anything.

I’m not pretending that history and science are religion and mythology. You’re conflating science with your own convoluted notions of ownership—which, in turn, are based on your convolution of science with history and religious mythologies--which is ridiculous.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Then you’re only discrediting yourself when you conflate science with the ridiculous notion that the Israelites and the Israelis are the same,

There is no conflation. Just my statement of scientific fact.
That you find science ridiculous does not change the reality that modern Israeli Jews are the descendants of the Israelites.

Now you’re changing the argument.

You had said that the Israelites and the Israelis are the same.

They are not.

Now you’re saying that modern Israeli Jews are the descendants of the Israelites.

Sure, modern Israeli Jews have Israelite descent, so do the Palestinians.

Again, this does not validate the assertion that "the Jews are the rightful owners of Palestine. "

oralloy wrote:

And no, I don't agree that adhering to science discredits me.

You’re not adhering to science, however. You’re adhering to some convoluted conflation of science and religious mythology.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
and the assertion that therefor the latter are rightful owners of Palestine, which you pull right out of Jewish religious mythology.

No. I pull that from the historical fact that the Israelis are the indigenous population of the West Bank region.

This is not a fact. This is a ridiculous notion of yours.

1 Reply

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

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