6
   

'One-State' Idea Gains Support Of Some Palestinians

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 06:43 am
@oralloy,
Orally,

You are completely wrong. Modern research shows that modern Palestinians and modern Jews have common ancestors that go back to the Bronze age. They are the same people genetically.

http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html

In addition to the scientific data showing that they descend from the same Bronze age ancestry is the archaeological research . I agree with you that the Biblical account isn't a historical record, but obviously the ancient people who wrote the Bible were writing to explain the existence of the tribes living in the land that is now Israel.

But the real question is this.

Does your mythology really matter. If you accepted that Palestinians had been in the land for the same amount of time as the Jews would it change your opinion?

Are you just grabbing on to your mythology because it matches your political standpoint.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 04:10 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Orally,

You are completely wrong. Modern research shows that modern Palestinians and modern Jews have common ancestors that go back to the Bronze age. They are the same people genetically.

http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html


Interesting. It says that the Palestinians and Jews diverged sometime before the rise of Judaism. That would mean that the Palestinians and Israelites were neighbors during the Iron Age.

I wonder which neighbors the Palestinians were.



maxdancona wrote:
In addition to the scientific data showing that they descend from the same Bronze age ancestry is the archaeological research . I agree with you that the Biblical account isn't a historical record, but obviously the ancient people who wrote the Bible were writing to explain the existence of the tribes living in the land that is now Israel.


I'd dismiss the entirety of Genesis as fiction. The entire book traces its textual lineage to the time of the Babylonian Exile.

Subsequent books however have a much older textual lineage. The oldest text in the Bible is the part about the escaped slaves fleeing Egypt across the Red Sea.

And that is matched by archaeology. The dawn of the Iron Age was the first time Israel showed up in historical records. And Egyptian records place a local deity named YHW in about the same area where Moses was supposed to have conversed with the Burning Bush.

A probable reconstruction is that some slaves escaped from Egypt, picked up religion on their way home, and arrived back home right at the end of the Bronze Age, when the previous civilization had collapsed and everyone was looking for something new to believe in.

Whether King David was directly descended from the escaped slaves is anyone's guess.

On the one hand, being the vanguard of a popular new religion probably gave the escaped slaves a lot of social status that would have made their descendants natural leaders.

But on the other hand, kings always try to claim descent from ancient national heroes.



maxdancona wrote:
But the real question is this.

Does your mythology really matter. If you accepted that Palestinians had been in the land for the same amount of time as the Jews would it change your opinion?


Well, perhaps I shouldn't be regarding the Palestinians as illegal invaders.

But that does not change the fact that the Palestinians are refusing to make peace, and in the absence of negotiations, Israel's only option is to impose their own order.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 05:33 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Well, perhaps I shouldn't be regarding the Palestinians as illegal invaders.


There's hope for you yet, oralloy.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 06:37 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:

Subsequent books however have a much older textual lineage. The oldest text in the Bible is the part about the escaped slaves fleeing Egypt across the Red Sea.

And that is matched by archaeology. The dawn of the Iron Age was the first time Israel showed up in historical records. And Egyptian records place a local deity named YHW in about the same area where Moses was supposed to have conversed with the Burning Bush


This is a myth. The Jewish people were never in Egypt and the escaped slaves never fled across the Red Sea.

If this really happened there would be real clear records of these events. You would find a record that the Egyptian army was decimated in the Red Sea. You would find a record when a large proportion of Egyptian men died. And you would find real signs of that number of people in the Sinai for so many years.

You are letting your world view interfere with reality against all logic and facts.

You are doing the same thing when you assign all of the blame that there is no peace on the Palestinians ignoring the the things Israel is doing to block peace and grab more land.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 06:38 pm
@maxdancona,
Mythology is probably the biggest reasons that a one state solution won't work.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 08:25 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Subsequent books however have a much older textual lineage. The oldest text in the Bible is the part about the escaped slaves fleeing Egypt across the Red Sea.

And that is matched by archaeology. The dawn of the Iron Age was the first time Israel showed up in historical records. And Egyptian records place a local deity named YHW in about the same area where Moses was supposed to have conversed with the Burning Bush


This is a myth.


No. It is what science and archaeology clearly shows.

The text about the escaped slaves crossing the Red Sea is the oldest part of the Bible.

The first historical records of Israel came at the dawn of the Iron Age.

And Egyptian records clearly show a deity named YHW in the area where Moses was said to have had his conversation with the Burning Bush.



maxdancona wrote:
The Jewish people were never in Egypt


Some of them were.



maxdancona wrote:
and the escaped slaves never fled across the Red Sea.


History says otherwise.



maxdancona wrote:
If this really happened there would be real clear records of these events.


The records are clear enough.



maxdancona wrote:
You would find a record that the Egyptian army was decimated in the Red Sea. You would find a record when a large proportion of Egyptian men died.


It is unlikely that a large portion of the Egyptian Army would have been dispatched to pursue a group of escaped slaves.

And even what pursuers there were, would not necessarily have died. All we know for sure is that the slaves succeeded in escaping. And soon after, they found religion.



maxdancona wrote:
And you would find real signs of that number of people in the Sinai for so many years.


A small group of people does not leave a lot of evidence of their passing.

And we don't know for sure how many years they took in transit. All that is really clear is that after escaping they made a stopover at the mountain where YHW was the local deity.



maxdancona wrote:
You are letting your world view interfere with reality against all logic and facts.


No, I am merely stating those logic and facts.



maxdancona wrote:
You are doing the same thing when you assign all of the blame that there is no peace on the Palestinians ignoring the things Israel is doing to block peace and grab more land.


No, again, that is just a mere statement of logic and facts.

Israel is not responsible for the fact that the Palestinians refuse to make peace.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 09:08 pm
@oralloy,
You are confusing science with religion. There are no reputable scientists or archaeologists that claim that there is any validity to the story of Jews enslaved in Egypt.

Read any religious on this that isn't from some religious organization (and Bible Archeologist doesn't count).

Christians (particularly American protestants) are the main support for the extremist views about Israel. A lot of this is also mythology surrounding a particular interpretation of the book of Revelations that was invented in the 1900's by preachers in the US.

Once you start grabbing on to religion, your grasp on reality suffers.


oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 09:18 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
You are confusing science with religion.


No, I am stating what science says.



maxdancona wrote:
There are no reputable scientists or archaeologists that claim that there is any validity to the story of Jews enslaved in Egypt.


Scientists who do textual analysis state that the oldest part of the Bible is the part referring to the escape of the slaves across the Red Sea.

Scientists who do archaeology state that records begin noting the presence of Israelites right about at the dawn of the Iron Age.

Scientists who do archaeology also note that there was a local deity named YHW in the very same region where Moses was supposed to have gone up a mountain and conversed with the Burning Bush.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 09:32 pm
@oralloy,
It is a myth Oralloy. If you insist on claiming that "science says" otherwise, then you should provide the links to some real scientist (not a religious person posing as a scientist to prove their religion) who says this. There are none.

Of course as a religious person you are going to believe whatever you want to believe no matter what the evidence is.

However to anyone who looks at the issue with objective logic, it is clear that the story of the Exodus is just a myth. It never really happened.

Quote:
A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[22] and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit".[11] A number of theories have been put forward to account for the origins of the Israelites, and despite differing details they agree on Israel's Canaanite origins.[25] The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite, and almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether even this is an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.[26] There is archeological evidence of the Caananite Hyksos people moving into and out of northern Egypt, though the relation of their dates to the biblical account is debated by scholars.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus



maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 09:34 pm
@oralloy,
I am also amazed how Christians, who claim to worship the "Prince of Peace" are so insistent on pushing toward war.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 10:46 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

The text about the escaped slaves crossing the Red Sea is the oldest part of the Bible.


That doesn't make it scientific nor archaeological.

Quote:
And Egyptian records clearly show a deity named YHW in the area where Moses was said to have had his conversation with the Burning Bush.


The existence of a cult of YHWH isn't in question here. The Exodus myth is in question. What does this have to do with the Exodus myth?

Quote:
All we know for sure is that the slaves succeeded in escaping.


According to the mythology, sure, but what about the science and archaeology? Where is this reference, outside of the mythology, to escaped slaves?
maxdancona
 
  4  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2012 06:35 am
It is both relevant and sad that a conversation about the Israel-Palestine conflict turns into an argument about religious mythology.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2012 10:45 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
It is a myth Oralloy.


No. What the scientists show is not a myth.



maxdancona wrote:
If you insist on claiming that "science says" otherwise, then you should provide the links to some real scientist (not a religious person posing as a scientist to prove their religion) who says this. There are none.


Here is the archaeology showing the first mention of Israel in the historical record, right at the dawn of the Iron Age:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele


The Bible claims Moses conversed with the Burning Bush in the land of the Shashu.

Here is the archaeology showing that there was a local deity named YHW in the land of the Shashu:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shasu


I'll have to try to look up the textual analysis indicating that the slaves crossing the Red Sea is the oldest part of the Bible. That one I don't have off hand.



maxdancona wrote:
Of course as a religious person you are going to believe whatever you want to believe no matter what the evidence is.


I choose to believe the science.



maxdancona wrote:
However to anyone who looks at the issue with objective logic, it is clear that the story of the Exodus is just a myth. It never really happened.


No, some of it did. Clearly some slaves escaped from Egypt, got religion soon thereafter, then arrived home after the collapse of the Bronze Age, and their new religion proved a big hit.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2012 11:03 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
The text about the escaped slaves crossing the Red Sea is the oldest part of the Bible.


That doesn't make it scientific nor archaeological.


Old writings have no value to archaeology?

I guess there is no science to be learned from Egyptian hieroglyphs either?



InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
And Egyptian records clearly show a deity named YHW in the area where Moses was said to have had his conversation with the Burning Bush.


The existence of a cult of YHWH isn't in question here. The Exodus myth is in question. What does this have to do with the Exodus myth?


The Bible claims that the conversation with the Burning Bush took place in a very specific place (in the land of the Shasu).

Archaeology proves that there was a local deity named YHW in that exact specific place, and nowhere else (until the Israelites popped up well to the north).



InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
All we know for sure is that the slaves succeeded in escaping.


According to the mythology, sure, but what about the science and archaeology? Where is this reference, outside of the mythology, to escaped slaves?


The fact that you want to label ancient writings as "mythology" does not mean they have no archaeological value.


What is your alternative scenario?

That the Egyptians had some magical means to prevent any slaves from ever escaping?

That when the Bronze Age ended, the Israelites suddenly migrated down to visit the Shasu and converted to their religion, then re-migrated back home?

But then they decided that no one must ever know of this migration, so they crafted a cover story of escaped slaves passing through the lands of the Shasu?


Seems more reasonable that a group of escaped slaves passed through the area and converted, and then their new religion proved to be a big hit once they got back home just in time for the collapse of the Bronze Age.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2012 11:41 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
I'll have to try to look up the textual analysis indicating that the slaves crossing the Red Sea is the oldest part of the Bible. That one I don't have off hand.



It's mentioned in an episode of PBS Nova:

Quote:
NARRATOR: The Tel Zayit abecedary is the earliest Hebrew alphabet ever discovered. It dates to about 1000 B.C., making it possible that writing the Hebrew Bible could have already started by this time. To discover the most ancient text in the Bible, scholars examine the Hebrew spelling, grammar and vocabulary.

KYLE MCCARTER: The Hebrew Bible is a collection of literature written over about a thousand years, and, as with any other language, Hebrew, naturally, changed quite a bit over those thousand years. The same would be true of English. I'm speaking English of the 21st century, and if I were living in Elizabethan times, the words I choose, the syntax I use would be quite different.

NARRATOR: Scholars examine the Bible in its original Hebrew in search of the most archaic language, and therefore the oldest passages. They find it in Exodus, the second book of the Bible.

VOICEOVER (Reading from the Bible, "Revised Standard Version," Exodus 15:4) Pharaoh's chariots and his army He cast into the sea. His picked officers are drowned in the Red Sea.

NARRATOR: This passage, known as the "Song of the Sea," is the climactic scene of Exodus, the story of the Israelites enslavement in Egypt and how Moses leads them to freedom. In all of the Bible, no single event is mentioned more times than the Exodus.

With the development of ancient Hebrew script, the "Song of the Sea" could have been written by 1000 B.C., the time of Tappy's alphabet. But it was probably recited as a poem long before the beginning of Hebrew writing.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/bibles-buried-secrets.html
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2012 12:24 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:

I'd dismiss the entirety of Genesis as fiction. The entire book traces its textual lineage to the time of the Babylonian Exile.


I take it then that you don't believe in creationism? Without the fall of man, what need would we have for Jesus dying on the cross and rising again to redeem man's sin? The promise made to Abraham that with his seed all nations would be blessed? Without Genesis, Christianity makes no sense.

oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2012 02:25 pm
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
I take it then that you don't believe in creationism?


Depends on what you mean by creationism. I believe that science has it right on how things came into being.

I regard the question of "whether God's hand was behind it all" to be unanswerable, and I don't really worry about it.



revelette wrote:
Without the fall of man, what need would we have for Jesus dying on the cross and rising again to redeem man's sin?


People do plenty enough sinning of their own accord. They don't need any help from Adam and Eve.



revelette wrote:
The promise made to Abraham that with his seed all nations would be blessed?


All the text about Abraham dates from the Babylonian Exile.

Likely the stories about "Israelites being descended from someone who was originally from Mesopotamia" were crafted to impress their Mesopotamian captors.



revelette wrote:
Without Genesis, Christianity makes no sense.


Just try being a good person, spreading kindness and easing suffering.

If there is a God waiting to judge you after you die, you'll do OK if you've followed that advice.

If the Atheists are correct and we are all destined to just wink out of existence, that'll suck, but I guess there is nothing that can be done about it.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2012 03:27 pm
@oralloy,
And how do either of these support the story of Exodus?

Egypt in the iron age was a pretty impressive Empire. The implication in your first link was that Egypt had conquered the territory that is now Israel. This doesn't fit into the Biblical story very well, does it.

From the same source....

Quote:
A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[22] and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit".[11] A number of theories have been put forward to account for the origins of the Israelites, and despite differing details they agree on Israel's Canaanite origins.[25] The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite, and almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether even this is an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2012 03:57 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
And how do either of these support the story of Exodus?


One of them shows Israel coming into existence soon after the slaves escaped from Egypt.

The other provides confirmation of one of the specific events mentioned in Exodus.



maxdancona wrote:
Egypt in the iron age was a pretty impressive Empire. The implication in your first link was that Egypt had conquered the territory that is now Israel. This doesn't fit into the Biblical story very well, does it.


Actually, their claim was to have exterminated the Israelis.

And no, clearly the Israelis were not exterminated.

But it still marks the first mention of Israel in the historical records, right at the dawn of the Iron Age.



maxdancona wrote:
From the same source....

Quote:
A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[22] and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit".[11] A number of theories have been put forward to account for the origins of the Israelites, and despite differing details they agree on Israel's Canaanite origins.[25] The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite, and almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether even this is an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus


Yes. A small group of travelers leaves little evidence of their passing, especially after 3,000 years.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2012 04:05 pm
This talk of who invaded who is rather bemusing, considering the founding of a number of western countries, the US included. I'm sure that California only 'joined' the US after an invasion of Mexico. Perhaps the US should give it back to Mexico.
0 Replies
 
 

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