63
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 02:53 pm
@0bserver,
0bserver wrote:

The settlement expansion decision is indeed a stupid move . Some say it comes to mitigate the public opinion effect of releasing Palestinian murderers from Israeli prisons. Still, a stupid move.


Your use of emotive language shows that you're far from as being even handed as you'd like us to think you are you've placed 99% on the Palestinians. What you're spouting could come straight from the Israeli News Agency.

0bserver
 
  3  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 03:43 pm
@izzythepush,
No need for overdramatization. Arabs in Haifa, Jaffo, Akko, Nazarreth etc that wanted to stay in 1948 stayed, got Israeli citizenship and enjoy full citizen rights now. They make up 20% of the population now, have ministers in the government and army generals in Israel. Some in 1948 were intimidated by Israelis to leave, some were encoraged by Arab leaders to leave promising them to come back with armies and destroy Israel. They tried many times and failed.

As for the US staying much the same, check the facts again:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

0bserver
 
  3  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 03:53 pm
@izzythepush,
No. My language is factual. People who commit intentional murders of innocent civilians are murderers - regardless what their agenda is. Same goes for Baruch Goldstein - the only israeli who did what hundreds of Palestinians do.

0bserver
 
  3  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 03:57 pm
@izzythepush,
And your analogy doesn't make sense. The pre 1776 cities you mention are American cities - the analogy would be Tel Aviv et al. The Palestinian villages in this analogy would be Native American tribes. You know what happened to them, right?

0bserver
 
  3  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 04:16 pm
@izzythepush,
And do you want us to think that you are evenhanded? You never answered my question:

Do you think there is anything that is Palestinians' fault?

My 99% (according to you) still beats your 100%
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 05:01 pm
@0bserver,
0bserver wrote:
No. My language is factual. People who commit intentional murders of innocent civilians are murderers - regardless what their agenda is. Same goes for Baruch Goldstein - the only israeli who did what hundreds of Palestinians do.

Good luck. Just remember you are trying to talk sense to an anti-Semite.

At the moment the anti-Semites are horrified that peace talks might lead to a Palestinian state. If the Palestinians get their state, the anti-Semites will lose their favorite platform for lying about Israel.

I expect the anti-Semites will all be ramping their hate into high gear in a desperate bid to collapse the peace talks and prevent the Palestinians from getting a state.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 05:06 pm
@0bserver,
I know exactly what the Americans did to the indigenous population. It's probably why they give so much money to the Israelis.

I've never claimed to be even handed. I wasn't even handed when I boycotted apartheid South Africa. I've posted on this forum for a number of years and I've never once hid the fact that I'm a member of The Palestinian Solidarity Campaign, an organisation committed to peaceful resistance to the occupation.

I do not agree with violence, but I don't know how I would react to such brutality. The occupation is all about subjugation and daily humiliation. Go on youtube and enter 'Israeli Settlers,' it's all there.

Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is a stain on the conscience of the West. I observe the boycott, cultural and economic, buy Palestinian olive oil, there's little else available, and support extending the boycott to all sporting events and the Eurovision Song Contest.

Having said that, I'm very reasonable, and if you can stay civil so can I. I only say this because there are some fanatical supporters of Israel who resort to name calling at the drop of a hat. You've already encountered Oralboy. He considers all Palestinians 'vermin,' just to give you an idea. So it would make a nice change to converse with a supporter of Israel in a cordial manner.
cicerone imposter
 
  -1  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 05:11 pm
@0bserver,
All Arabs living in Israel has green license plates (even those living in Haifa, Akko, Jaffa and Nazareth), and they are restricted from passing through checkpoints all over Israel. That's not 'FREEDOM' by any definition.

cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 05:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
This maps shows which roads are restricted to Palestinians (green plates).

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/05/where-the-color-of-your-license-plate-dictates-which-roads-you-can-drive-on.html

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 05:53 pm
@cicerone imposter,
It seems some people just hate to hear facts on Israel's apartheid.
0 Replies
 
0bserver
 
  3  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 06:52 pm
@izzythepush,
You have the right to boycott whom ever you like, and buy any oil you prefer - that's your own business.

I'm not a supporter of any side. Like I said before, I may be biased like we all are, but at least I make the effort of understanding the motivation and the suffering on both sides. You are trying to put Palestinian violence into context saying that occupation is brutal. I agree it is brutal and should go away. I'm glad you don't support violence, because I think it can only breed more violence.

Now try also to make an effort and understand why the occupation is there. Israel is a whole country in post-traumatic-stress disorder. You think mentioning the Holocaust is a PR move - try to open your mind and see what you would think if half of your people was killed (not expelled - killed!) several decades ago. And there are still those who think that was a good thing - some of them on this forum. There was no occupation prior to 1967, and still there were several wars started by the Arabs with the purpose of eliminating Israel and basically sending the Jews to their death. I'm not supporting the occupation - I'm very much against it. I'm explaining how the situation got there. Now it's time to get rid of this situation peacefully. If the extremists on both sides stop inciting to violence, and start listening to the other side - there is a chance.

I have no problems discussing things with people that disagree with me as long as it does not involve hatred and violence. And hopefully no open lies. Like the map in the beginning, or some people saying here that Arab Israelis have different-color licence plates and are stopped at check points. That's a lie. Arab Israeli citizens have exactly the same plates as Jewish or French or Russian or whatever Israeli citizens. And there are no check points in Israel. Palestinian territories are not part of Israel, and their population are not Israeli citizens, just like Tijuana cars have different plates from San Diego cars. Israeli army has no business being on those territories - that's another issue. And I hope it will not be there soon, and I hope the Palestinians will not give it a reason to come back - e.g by firing thousands of rockets unprovoked, like they did in Gaza 2005. I'm happy the Israelis are not stupid enough to go back into Gaza.

izzythepush
 
  -1  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 07:07 pm
@0bserver,
Given what you've said about Israel and the Holocaust, don't you think that it's a bit hypocritical for Israel to roll out the red carpet for a Nazi and share technology for making a nuclear device?

Quote:
When the South African prime minister John Vorster made a state visit to Israel in April 1976, it began with a tour of Yad Vashem, Israel's major Holocaust memorial, where the late Yitzhak Rabin invited the onetime Nazi collaborator, unabashed racist and white supremacist to pay homage to Jews murdered in the Holocaust.

Compared, say, to routine outcries from organized Jewry over often even mild whiffs of Holocaust controversy, no less remarkable was the bland equanimity both Israeli and diaspora Jews also displayed toward the Vorster visit.

Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi recalls [The Israeli Connection, Random House: Toronto, 1987, p.x]:
"For most Israelis, the Vorster visit was just another state visit by a foreign leader. It did not draw much attention. Most Israelis did not even remember his name, and did not see anything unusual, much less surreal in the scene [an old Nazi diehard invited to 'mourn' the victims at a Holocaust memorial]: Vorster was just another visiting dignitary being treated to the usual routine."
The old Nazi collaborator was graciously welcomed by his hosts. The South African leader left Israel four days later -- after signing a number of friendship treaties between the Jewish state and South Africa's racist, apartheid regime. A denouement Leslie and Andrew Cockburn describe in Dangerous Liaison [Stoddart Publishing: Toronto, 1991, pp. 299 - 300]:
"The old Nazi sympathizer came away with bilateral agreements for commercial, military, and nuclear cooperation that would become the basis for future relations between the two countries."
Leaving unmentioned Vorster's wartime internment for supporting Germany, Israel's prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin, hailed the South African premier as a force for freedom and made no mention of Vorster's past as he toured the Jerusalem memorial to the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis. At a state banquet, Rabin toasted "the ideals shared by Israel and South Africa: the hopes for justice and peaceful coexistence". Both countries, he said, faced "foreign-inspired instability and recklessness."


http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/event.php?eid=1134
cicerone imposter
 
  -1  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 07:11 pm
@izzythepush,
What irony!
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 07:15 pm
@0bserver,
0bserver wrote:
I hope the Palestinians will not give it a reason to come back - e.g by firing thousands of rockets unprovoked, like they did in Gaza


Are you honestly saying that Israel does not provoke the Palestinian people? They provoke them every day.
cicerone imposter
 
  -1  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 07:21 pm
@izzythepush,
This so-called "observer" is blind and dumb! Why try to discuss something with a blind and dumb poster who doesn't even understand the fundamentals of an apartheid state. If he's not Jewish as he claims, he's dumber than most people on this planet - trying to defend the inhumane treatment of Palestinians in their "own" country where generations have lived.

Observer has no eyes.
0 Replies
 
0bserver
 
  3  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 07:21 pm
@izzythepush,
I don't know what motivated Rabin in 1976. That was 3 years after a very hard war - you give up ideologies when you need to survive. Some people in Israel still don't buy German cars. I think that's too much. I would stop at avoiding Nazi's. If the Israelis stopped interacting with everyone who let the Nazis kill Jews in the 1940s, well that would be half of the World's population.

South Africa's Apartheid was an ugly regime, but often a la guerre comme a la guerre. The enemy of your enemy is your friend. Now it happens that old Israel's sunni enemies are all of a sudden its allies when it comes to dealing with shia Iran etc. Same goes for PLO. They used to be Israel's bitter enemies, and started collaborating at some point. Stopped for a while, and I hope will start again. I don't like ideologies - they are not constructive in practical sense.

cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 07:24 pm
@0bserver,
What has the apartheid state of Israel have to do with buying German cars?

Are you really that stupid? Yes, you are!
0 Replies
 
0bserver
 
  3  
Sun 11 Aug, 2013 07:29 pm
@izzythepush,
Not in Gaza. That's the sad part of the story for me. I honestly hoped that after 2005 Gaza would become an example of a Palestinian independent state, flourish economically, and the West Bank would follow in a few years. Turned out to be wishful thinking.

Yes, in the first years after 2005 there were no provocations of Gaza by Israel. There was an internal power struggle in Gaza. And Hamas had to keep firing rockets to keep the power against Fatah. In the following years it became the "circle of violence": Palestinian rockets for 2-3 years followed by heavy Israeli attacks for a few weeks, and again .. until Iron Dome came.

Look at the Irony in Gaza now: Now Hamas is not interested in firing rockets, and some even more extremist salafi organizations are challenging Hamas.
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Mon 12 Aug, 2013 04:10 am
@0bserver,
Yes in Gaza, it's under siege, everything is hard to get hold of. The IDF shoot at them for sport.

Quote:
At least 10 Palestinian children have been shot and wounded by Israeli troops in the past three months while collecting rubble in or near the "buffer zone" created by Israel along the Gaza border, in a low-intensity offensive on the fringes of the blockaded Palestinian territory.

Israeli soldiers are routinely shooting at Gazans well beyond the unmarked boundary of the official 300 metre-wide no-go area, rights groups say.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/11/israeli-troops-accused-children-gaza

Most of this stuff doesn't get reported. You hear about the rockets coming out of Gaza, but not about the 5 dead Palestinians that lead up to it.
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Mon 12 Aug, 2013 04:18 am
@izzythepush,
As for Hamas, part of Israel's divide and rule strategy.

Quote:
Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor's bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile's trajectory back to an "enormous, stupid mistake" made 30 years ago.

"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction.

Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas. Sheikh Yassin continues to inspire militants today; during the recent war in Gaza, Hamas fighters confronted Israeli troops with "Yassins," primitive rocket-propelled grenades named in honor of the cleric.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html
 

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