Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

@cicerone imposter,

Your wrong CI. The Isralies are using a tried and true U. S. tactic from the 1800 to the 1950's or so. It solved the Indian problem. Establish ranches and farms on indian land and when the indians try to throw you off of the land appeal to the military. Fight a 10 year or so war with them untill superior weapons force them to sue for peace. Then move them off their land to another more worthless piece of land. Then repeat as needed untill you have wittled down the population of the indians to the point that they can only fight wars of suicide. Israel has learned well.

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@0bserver,

0bserver wrote:

My guess is that will happen in any case, regardless of the outcome of the current peace talks. Just like it did happen in Gaza - the settlements were removed unilaterally. Of course it would be better to have a peace agreement like with Jordan and not an armistice line like with Syria.

Unilateral pullouts ended when people started using abandoned territory as a base from which to attack Israel.

If no peace agreement is reached, the Palestinians will have to be removed from the West Bank and transported to Gaza.

That said, it seems possible that a peace agreement will be reached.

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@RABEL222,

There's a huge difference; Indians living on reservations have the freedom to move around as they please. Palestinians don't have that freedom. Even their cars have green license plates that restricts their movement in Israel.

At least Indians aren't boxed in prisons like the Palestinians.

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@0bserver,

I'm sorry, but you're essentially very dishonest. You've put pretty much all the blame for this on the Palestinians. The Palestinians are the ones being violent, not the Israelis, even though the death count is skewed significantly in Israel's favour.

The unilateral withdrawal from illegal settlements Gaza was to consolidate and expand those in the West Bank. Gaza is under siege, and is really just a Bantustan. Apartheid South Africa also set the precedent for that.

You like to bring up the Holocaust because it distracts from the real suffering in the occupied territories, but the truth is the Israelis were quite prepared to suck up to Nazis when it suited them.

Quote:

During the second world war the future South African prime minister John Vorster was interned as a Nazi sympathiser. Three decades later he was being feted in Jerusalem. In the second part of his remarkable special report, Chris McGreal investigates the clandestine alliance between Israel and the apartheid regime, cemented with the ultimate gift of friendship - A-bomb technology

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/07/southafrica.israel

Btw, before you call CI a Nazi for pointing out the savage policies of Israel, you should know that he has visited Palestine and witnessed the subjugation and persecution first hand. He knows what he's talking about.

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@izzythepush,

I am not dishonest because I tell you honestly what I see. I may be not objective of course like we all are. Both sides are violent in different ways. Israelis use much more force, but much more selectively targeted at militants even if not carefully enough. Palestinians have more dead because Israelis use more force, but also because Palestinians often aim their operations at getting more dead on their own side. Otherwise I don't see a reason for shooting rockets out of windows in houses with children in them. And even though Palestinians have less military power, they intentionally target innocent civilians like blowing up school buses or stabbing one-year-old babies in their sleep. I don't even compare this situation to anywhere else in the world where the local power would have just carpet-bomb any rocket launching sites - in houses or not. US drones bomb terrorists in Pakistan - imagine what they would have done if they were in Mexico. Israelis on the other hand are controlling every aspect of Palestinian lives, which is an ugly occupation and has to stop.

Neither you nor me know what went in Sharon's head when he decided to pull out of Gaza. So lets not speculate. I stated a fact - there are no more Israelis in Gaza. I think that's a good thing - that's all. Sea siege of Gaza is a bad thing, but it has nothing to do with Apartheid. Shooting rockets from Gaza is also a bad thing. See, I can see the problems on both sides.

I don't bring up the Holocaust to distract anyone. I'm aware of the Palestinian suffering and I want it to stop. I mentioned the Holocaust to explain why Israel will never trust international control - that's all.

I didn't call anyone a Nazi for criticizing any policy. If someone suggest there should be more gas chambers, he is a Nazi by anyone's definition - regardless of what he stands for. I have nothing to say to a person promoting another Holocaust. I hope the law authorities or medical treatment will take care of him. If you saw his post and you say I called him a Nazi because of criticism of Israel, now you are being dishonest.

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@0bserver,

Israel intentionally targets innocent civilians, and with sophisticated weaponry.

Quote:

Maha El-Sheiky, 36, said that she fled her home in the western suburbs of Gaza City two days ago, moving her family into a school in the centre of the city. "We thought it would be safer here. But now there is shelling everywhere. It is schools and mosques and hospitals. We don’t know what will be next," she said. "We are hiding, it is in God’s hands."

There were reports that the al-Quds hospital in the Tal El Hawa district, Gaza's second-largest, had been shelled, while more than 500 patients were being treated inside.

An explosion also blasted a tower block that houses the offices of Reuters and several other media organisations, injuring a journalist working for the Abu Dhabi television channel.

Reuters journalists working at the time said it appeared that the southern side of the 13th floor of the Al-Shurouq Tower in the city centre had been struck by an Israeli missile or shell. Reuters evacuated its bureau.

Several organisations, including the International Committee of the Red Cross and Human Rights Watch, said that they were "certain" that Israel was using white phosphorus shells in Gaza. Human rights workers said that the use of phosphorus in the densely populated Gaza City could constitute a war crime.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21776.htm

You are being dishonest, Israel is a terrorist state, they use excessive violence because it works.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Israel is not targeting civilians, and it has no reason to target civilians - it only loses points in public opinion when civilians get hurt. They target people that shoot rockets at civilians in Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

You can argue about who owns the land, who is the oppressor etc. But shooting at civilians intentionally is clearly terrorism.

When the rockets were shot from open areas, the militants got killed and the public opinion in the world didn't care. That was a problem for them. So they started shooting out of houses with children. More than that, they are threatening any family that tries to flee the house they shoot from. The family is often forced on the roof of the house the militants shoot from - to make sure that Israeli planes see their "shield". When children get hurt everyone cares. I feel horrible when that happens. The question is who is to blame for that. The targets are rocket launchers. You can't call that "targeting civilians".

On the other hand Palestinians do intentionally target civilians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Shalhevet_Pass
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Tali_Hatuel_and_her_four_daughters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_militant_groups_suicide_attacks

These are not attacks on Israeli soldiers where civilians got hurt by mistake - these are intentional murders of civilians only.

1 Reply

@0bserver,

Israel deliberately targets civilians, they continued to bomb a hospital during operation Cast lead, despite being told so by UN observers. During Cast Lead children were used as human shields by the IDF. The IDF killed 313 children during Cast Lead. The reason the figure is so high is because they were deliberately targeted.

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@izzythepush,

And the latest.

Quote:

The Israeli government has approved the construction of nearly 1,200 new homes in Jewish settlements in occupied Palestinian areas.

Construction Minister Uri Ariel said they would be built in the West Bank and East Jerusalem to meet the needs of Israeli citizens.

It comes three days before peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians are due to resume in Jerusalem. The issue of settlement-building halted the last direct talks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23655661

I know Observer likes to play semantics about whether or not there was a Palestine prior to the creation of Israel, the British Mandate not being good enough for him/her, but Palestinians were forced out of their homes or even worse.

Quote:

Around 400 Arab towns and villages were depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus. Some places were entirely destroyed and left uninhabitable; others were left with a few hundred residents and were repopulated by Jewish immigrants, then renamed.

Towns and villages are arranged according to the subdistrict of pre-1948 Mandatory Palestine they were situated in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_towns_and_villages_depopulated_during_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus

Quote:

The Deir Yassin massacre took place on April 9, 1948, when around 120 fighters from the Irgun Zevai Leumi and Lohamei Herut Israel Zionist paramilitary groups attacked Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, a Palestinian-Arab village of roughly 600 people. The assault occurred as Jewish militia sought to relieve the blockade of Jerusalem by Palestinian forces during the civil war that preceded the end of British rule in Palestine.

Around 107 villagers were killed during and after the battle for the village, including women and children—some were shot, while others died when hand grenades were thrown into their homes. Several villagers were taken prisoner and may have been killed after being paraded through the streets of West Jerusalem, though accounts vary. Four of the attackers died, with around 35 injured.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

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@izzythepush,

Quote:

Finance Minister Yair Lapid criticized the move calling it a "big mistake."

"Solutions for the housing problem should be implemented where there is demand. The use of resources designated for housing for the middle class for the purpose of unnecessarily defying the Americans is not conducive for the peace process."

The announcement was also criticized by the opposition. "Building thousands of housing units in the settlements is a side bomb placed by the government to kill the negotiations before they even begin," said Meretz Chairwoman Zahava Gal-On. "We will not have an agreement with the Palestinians as long as settlement construction continues. There will be no peace agreement that is not based on 1967 lines with land swaps and the division of Jerusalem."

Source: ynet

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@0bserver,

You seem to ignore that Palestinians use more "force" as you call it. They have lost their freedoms and their homes. What more do you want them to lose before they take up arms to defend themselves?

What would "you" do if you were a Palestinian in Israel? Just sit back and let them expand their settlements on your land?

You have vacated common sense and humanity in your support of the Zionists in Israel.

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@izzythepush,

I know civilians were killed in Cast Lead, which is terrible. But, you ignore the fact that many "civilians" are Jihad and Hamas members. And you ignore all the Israeli civilians hurt from years (not days) of Palestinian rockets hitting Israeli towns.

And also you ignore simple logic:

1)If civilians are targeted, it does not necessarily mean they get hurt. E.g. unsuccessful Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians, and rockets shot down by the Iron Dome.

2) If civilians get hurt , it does not necessarily mean they were targeted. Just like in Israeli strike on Gaza.

So numbers alone don't mean that much. Use simple logic again. If the aim were to hurt civilians, why is it that only targets with militants are hit, with civilian casualties occasionally? Wouldn't it be easier just to carpet-bomb the whole city of Gaza or Rafah to get many civilian casualties? Morals aside, your speculations just don't make sense.

On the other hand, the Palestinians are basically carpet-bombing the city of Sderot, Ofakim etc. with the tools they have a available. I can't imagine what they would do if they had better tools.

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@0bserver,

You suffer from ignorance and myopia. You'd just better wish you're never in the same situation as the Palestinians have been since 1967.

Do you have colored license plates to restrict your movement? How much value do you place on your freedoms?

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@izzythepush,

The settlement expansion decision is indeed a stupid move . Some say it comes to mitigate the public opinion effect of releasing Palestinian murderers from Israeli prisons. Still, a stupid move.

As for "Palestine prior to the creation of Israel, the British Mandate not being good enough" - I'm sorry, is USA prior to the 1776 good enough for you? No country means no country. People seem to go into these history debates where everyone chooses a cut off date as they like. Why not the Ottoman empire? Why not the Crusaders? The Romans, the Greeks, ancient Israel?

Why are you ignoring the other side of the fighting during pre-Israel times. The side that actually started the violence because they didn't like having new neighbors:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936%E2%80%9339_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine

Knowing history is good, but it doesn't solve today's problems. Look at the facts today - there is real suffering on both sides that has to end.

Try to be an objective and reasonable person. I know you dislike many things the Israelis do. I also dislike some of them. What are the things Palestinians do that you don't like?

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@0bserver,

I agree; trying to equate current conditions with history is a non-sequitur, because one can always find agreements and disagreements on almost every issue by looking at history. Current conditions are current conditions; the result of our past. What our future holds is anyone's guess.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Yes, a stupid decision indeed. My guess it has to do with internal coalition politics in Israel. The far right is really interested in undermining the talks.

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@0bserver,

0bserver wrote:

Knowing history is good, but it doesn't solve today's problems.

Of course doesn't history solve today's problems. But understanding history is a helpful basis for solving today's problems.

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@Walter Hinteler,

It may be helpful, but history also shows it's helpful very few times - if any.

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@0bserver,

313 children weren't terrorists. Just try to picture that many for a minute. That's a big primary school. Israel's tactics are extremely disproportionate.

The UN hospital that was hit had no fighters whatsoever, and the IDF knew it because the UN had told them.

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@0bserver,

USA prior to 1776? What there was of it had clearly designated cities property etc. I imagine that probably stayed much the same straight after. They didn't all get turfed out when the British left.

2 Replies

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

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