Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

@0bserver,

Quote:

I'm not even going into the whole historic argument about a Jewish state being there for thousands of years.

Smart move on your part!

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@0bserver,

Basically you're blaming everything on the Palestinians, ignoring the fact that the Palestinian authority accepted Israel's right to exist a long time ago, the brutality of the occupation and the continued construction of illegal settlements on occupied land.

You talk about propaganda, but playing lipservice to the notion of a Palestinian state while blaming everything on them is propaganda in its purest form. Try looking at all the facts, not just those that support your own prejudices.

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Israeli settlements approval raises tensions before Middle East peace talks

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Formal peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians will begin next week amid rising tensions over Israel's continued settlement building and the European Union's tough stance on funding for Israeli institutions with links to occupied territory.

The US state department announced that the first substantive talks for five years would open in west Jerusalem on Wednesday and then move to the Palestinian desert city of Jericho. The talks will be preceded by Israel's release of the first batch of 104 long-term Palestinian prisoners, expected on Tuesday.

But the approval on Thursday by Israel's defence ministry of plans to build more than 800 new homes in West Bank settlements prompted a warning from Palestinian negotiators that such moves could scupper talks.

Quote:

It is like negotiating with someone about how to share a piece of pie while that person is sneaking a fork into the pie and eating it up.

source

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@revelette,

Remember that saying about "getting a piece of the pie?" How is that done, when there's only the crust left? (desert)

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@revelette,

Exactly Rev.

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@izzythepush,

Not at all. Both sides have made significant contributions to the state of the conflict. I'm aware of that. Israelis should give up land to make a Palestinian state possible, and the Palestinians should stop incitement to violence etc. I'm not arguing that one side is better than the other.

I'm just saying that this map, and many other "facts" that are being presented as true, are in fact wrong. And I listed several points why this one is wrong. Israeli settlement expansion while the peace talks are starting is just as bad, but it has nothing to do with the presented maps. That is exactly the incitement and the propaganda I meant. I was never intentionally misleading anyone as this map does. I am referring specifically to the Palestinian side now, because the map was presented as the main source of the conflict. Firstly, it is not, and secondly it is a lie.

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@cicerone imposter,

Please check your facts. Desert makes up a larger fraction of Israel than of the Palestinian territories.

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@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

Yes. Why?

http://zioneocon.blogspot.com/isr-world.gif

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_insurance

Quote:

Title insurance is a form of indemnity insurance predominantly found in the United States which insures against financial loss from defects in title to real property and from the invalidity or unenforceability of mortgage liens. Title insurance is principally a product developed and sold in the United States as a result of an alleged comparative deficiency of the U.S. land records laws. It is meant to protect an owner's or a lender's financial interest in real property against loss due to title defects, liens or other matters.

"Other matters" include the possibility of there being a valid prior claim on the property in question.

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@gungasnake,

I guess this map wants to say that all the green land was conquered by Islam at some point, whereas the tiny red spot is the small piece of land populated by Jews. And maybe also the fact that Jews were expelled from most of these Islamic countries, while their possessions were confiscated.

While, unlike the first map, this one has more truth to it, I also don't like this one because it is also unfair. It is true that there are dozens of Islamic countries taking up all of North Africa and the Middle East, but there are also hundreds of millions of people living in them. There are less than 20 million Jews, so I wouldn't say these should be compared.

Again, not going into the historical debate of who conquered what from whom in what millennium. The point is to recognize the situation on the ground now, and find a practical solution so that people can coexist. Maps of who had what once don't help that!

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@0bserver,

Point is, you've got the entire muslim world to find places for the palisavages. So far, the problem has been that nobody else in the muslim world has ever been willing to take them. Jordanians killed some 30,000 of them when booting them out in 72. Israelis have nowhere else to go.

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@0bserver,

The ones who are inciting violence are the people stealing other people's property. How would you feel if somebody bulldozed your property, took it over, and rebuilt homes for others to live in?

You have no legal rights. Where would you go to get justice?

What! You don't have any legal rights to your own property?

What will you do?

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@cicerone imposter,

One thing is sure. What you don't do is violence. Where did it get the Palestinians in the last 65 years? Two major wars that Arabs started got them to lose land. Two major terrorism waves that Palestinians started resulted in the building of the barrier. In 1995 there was no barrier, and there were suicide attacks in Haifa (including on Arabs). In 2005 there was a barrier, and not a single attack.

And now you're getting into the endless debate over who stole land from whom. There was a Jewish state on that land 3000 years before the word "Palestinians" ever came up. And 6 million Jews systematically killed in Europe also has something to do with this - you can't ignore that. But I don't want to go into this debate because I do recognize the suffering of the Palestinians today, but I don't think causing suffering to the Jews will solve the problems of the Palestinians.

The only "legal rights" Palestinians had were after the UN partition plan. They gave it up and started a war. Where were you when hundreds of millions of Arabs openly said they want Israel pushed into the sea and started several wars?

So I think all these "legal rights" and historic claims are irrelevant. What can help the Palestinians ever get their independence and Israelis get security is to understand that there are 2 peoples that live on that land, and both have to recognize the other.

What many right-wing Israelis do is to ignore the Palestinians, and what you're doing is to ignore the Jews. That is not helful

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@Frank Apisa,

You are leaving out one major factor in this equation: the Holocaust. It could seem like an irrelevant old event, but for Jews and Israelis it is as central to everything as say human rights or the economy.

After the 20th century, Israelis will never trust any "international control". Last time international community simply let half of the Jewish population die. So yes, some Arabs that lived in Zefat didn't like the fact of getting new neighbors in the 1930s. I still think this is a minor evil compared to being sent to a concentration camp .

Also you write: " Arabs, and Muslims had lived in relative harmony in that area of hundreds upon hundreds of years…until the state of Israel came into existence. "

Which is technically incorrect. Arab attacks on Jews started before the the state of Israel came into existence.

And I think the situation in the Arab world today makes this point irrelevant. Do you really think the Syrians, the Iraqi's , the Egyptians, the Lybians etc are killing each other because "the state of Israel came into existence. "? If anything, Israel is the most peaceful place there right now.

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“I am a black South African, and if I were to change the names, a description of what is happening in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank could describe events in South Africa under Apartheid.” Archbishop Desmond Tutu

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@0bserver,

With all this talk about peace that the Jews talk about is useless, hopeless, and full of bull ****! How many decades has this been going on? Palestinians have nothing to lose; they've already lost their freedom and their homes. What else is left?

If you fall into that same condition, I'm sure you'll just follow your fellow Jews into the gas chambers. What a ******* dork!~

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@cicerone imposter,

Oh, how nice. Calling for genocide. I'm not going to respond to this. This should be the job of the moderaotr just to ban this.

I'm not a Jew, but you are obviously a Nazzi. Very sad

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@0bserver,

Cicerone imposter and izzythepush are both hardcore anti-Semites. They're currently pretty upset over the fact that peace talks have resumed.

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@izzythepush,

1) I'm not sure when this quote is dated. After 2005 there is not a single Israeli in Gaza . So I can't see how this applies
2) The West Bank indeed looks bad today. Roads for Israelis only is really a bad idea - for security or not.

I'm surprised to see some Israelis think that this state can be preserved forever - mainly the religious far right. The majority of Israelis want to see this issue resolved. The isolated settlements in the middle of Palestinian population that cause this injustice have to be removed .

My guess is that will happen in any case , regardless of the outcome of the current peace talks. Just like it did happen in Gaza - the settlements were removed unilaterally. Of course it would be better to have a peace agreement like with Jordan and not an armistice line like with Syria.

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@0bserver,

I'm a "nazi" who advocates for equality for all peoples.

What do you know about "genocide?" Your support of Zionists in Israel is more like nazis who advocates for getting rid of Palestinians.

You wrote,

Quote:

) I'm not sure when this quote is dated. After 2005 there is not a single Israeli in Gaza.

You're so ******* stupid, you don't even know the reasons why Jews don't live in Gaza.

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Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

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