63
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Mon 22 Jun, 2015 10:25 am
@Walter Hinteler,

The Israelis already properly investigate any allegations of Israeli war crimes.

I'll be expecting the ICC to set up prosecutions of the Palestinians however.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Mon 22 Jun, 2015 10:25 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
"Israel will consider the report in light of these essential failings. It would encourage all fair-minded observers to do the same," the ministry statement said.

Done.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Mon 22 Jun, 2015 10:35 am
@Walter Hinteler,
It amazes me that there is still someone in the Israeli government that cares to communicate their hasbara BS to the rest of us... They've lost that fight a long time ago but they still don't know it. Or perhaps the functionaries in their Ministry of Lies are just going on with the motion, pretending to do something...
oralloy
 
  -1  
Mon 22 Jun, 2015 11:25 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
It amazes me that there is still someone in the Israeli government that cares to communicate their hasbara BS to the rest of us... They've lost that fight a long time ago but they still don't know it. Or perhaps the functionaries in their Ministry of Lies are just going on with the motion, pretending to do something...

You're pretty free with the false accusations of lies there.

Can you point out even one untrue thing that the Israeli government said?
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jun, 2015 12:43 pm
@oralloy,
"The IDF is the most moral army in the world."
RABEL222
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jun, 2015 04:43 pm
@InfraBlue,
Wait! Wait! Oh hell, its to late. I dident have my hip boots on and now my socks have turned brown.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Sun 28 Jun, 2015 10:33 pm

Scratch one flotilla.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/06/gaza-bound-flotilla-seized-israeli-navy-150629032943407.html

I'd have had fighter jets sink it with a laser-guided bomb, were it my call. Oh well.
RABEL222
 
  0  
Mon 29 Jun, 2015 02:45 pm
@oralloy,
They tried that with the USS Liberty but couldent silence the U S sailors on board because they couldent sink the ship. But the U S government made up to Israel by telling them it was O K to kill and wound 250 U S sailors. In the eyes of U S politicians Israel can do anything they want too. They can do no wrong. Are you by any chance a politician?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Mon 29 Jun, 2015 03:37 pm
UN Inquiries are generally highly political in their motivations and findings. What are called War Crimes today are simply a part of almost all military conflicts in history and certainly a part of the several conflicts going on in the Islamic world today. The events surrounding the ongoing civil wat in Syria and the ongoing Sunni/ISIS war on everyone are certainly an order of magnitude worse than most that has gone before it in recent times. Oddly this appears to have caused no great international outrage. There are notably no blue UN helmets to be found in the areas where ISIS killers are slaughtering Kurds, Druz, Christians and others.

Announcing that Israel Hisbola and other Palestinian organizations "may have committed war crimes" in their conflicts over the last few years is as close as one can get to saying nothing at all. Lobbing unguided missiles into cities in the absence of any formal declaration of war is at least the equal of short prior notice for the use of very accurate artillery against an urban target.

Israel has to its discredit put territorial expansion ahead of justice for its neighbors since the 1967 war. However, that is a fairly common failing in today's world, and the outrage directed at it by the cant of contemporary politicval correctitude could not possibly be more disdcordant with the relative silence attending the ISIS (and Russian) outrages in current news.

Foofie
 
  1  
Mon 29 Jun, 2015 07:21 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Israel has to its discredit put territorial expansion ahead of justice for its neighbors since the 1967 war.


Are you alluding to the West Bank that made those Arabs Jordanians, not Palestinians?

Since the West Bank has Orthodox Jewish settlers, this is not territorial expansion, just using land for the best purposes (the legal term escapes me for the moment). The West Bank has never been annexed; please get that into your head. And, if it ever became part of Jordan in a future peace deal, I would think nothing is wrong with Jews living on Jordanian soil, since Arabs live on Israeli soil. Or, is there a pandering to the Arab belief that their countries must be Juden Frei?



georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 29 Jun, 2015 10:33 pm
@Foofie,
I think you know that what you wrote is false. The vast majority of the population of the West Bank was Palestinian in 1967. The Orthodox settlers came afterwards, and these settlements have so far expanded to covere over a third of the former West Bank territory, and now lies behind an Israeli wall.
McTag
 
  1  
Tue 30 Jun, 2015 02:59 am
@georgeob1,

Land, and water, and commerce, and social history. They try to strangle any and all vestiges of Arab society and life in the occupied territories, and in Gaza.

Lebensraum. Vernichtungsplaene.
Ionus
 
  0  
Tue 30 Jun, 2015 03:07 am
@McTag,
I would be more receptive to British opinion if :
1) They hadn't of started the mess in the first place by treating Jordanians like they didn't exist
2) They had of died alongside Israelis fighting for their very lives seeing it was a British protectorate
3) Hadn't of attacked Egypt with the French
4) Hadnt of used gas and aerial attacks against the anti-British Arabs in WW1
5) Had of kept their promises to the Arabs as allies in WW1

Now you say you are concerned about Arab lives ? Bit late old chap...
georgeob1
 
  1  
Tue 30 Jun, 2015 08:12 am
@Ionus,
I agree with nearly all of that. When they weren't worried about or fighting each other, bringing down the Ottoman empire and exploiting its remains had been the more or less constant objective of the British, French and Russians since the start of the 19th century. The world is still dealing with the unhappy consequences of the destruction of that Empire by the Allies in WWI. Wilhemite Germany also tried hard to influence the Ottomans, mostly through commercial and cooperative military ventures. That only exacerbated the ambitious rivalries of the Allies. The Ottomans had their faults, but what has followed has been far worse.

That said human history is a series of tragedies, punctuated by occasional brilliant achievments. Unforseen consequences are the rule, not the exception, in the actions of great powers, and none I am aware of has has escaped this fate.

There is an air of complacent, self-satisfied piety in the "politically correct" judgments of today's world that ignores some inconvenient but prominent truths. The points above are among them. Another is that the centuries long conflict between Western Culture and Islam is not over.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Tue 30 Jun, 2015 11:55 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

I think you know that what you wrote is false. The vast majority of the population of the West Bank was Palestinian in 1967. The Orthodox settlers came afterwards, and these settlements have so far expanded to covere over a third of the former West Bank territory, and now lies behind an Israeli wall.


In 1967 there was a country called Palestine, with Palestinian citizens? They weren't Jordanians?

You wouldn't want a wall between you and murderous neighbors?

Let's not belabor your opinion. Your opinion is correct, as long as you are interpreting history, based on your choice of what is part of the analysis.

I'll admit that Zionism is wrong today, if you admit that Catholicism is wrong today (in a literate population that can read the bible; that only God can give man forgiveness in anything; the hierarchy of the Catholic church is a throwback to the Pharisees and Sadducees; and God/Jesus, being omnipresent, can hear and act on any prayers of intercession IMMEDIATELY). However, since I doubt you will admit that Catholicism practices Christianity in a manner, that seems much less effective than Protestantism, I see no reason to listen to a one-sided criticism of a religion.



InfraBlue
 
  2  
Tue 30 Jun, 2015 12:09 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
UN Inquiries are generally highly political in their motivations and findings. What are called War Crimes today are simply a part of almost all military conflicts in history and certainly a part of the several conflicts going on in the Islamic world today. The events surrounding the ongoing civil wat in Syria and the ongoing Sunni/ISIS war on everyone are certainly an order of magnitude worse than most that has gone before it in recent times. Oddly this appears to have caused no great international outrage. There are notably no blue UN helmets to be found in the areas where ISIS killers are slaughtering Kurds, Druz, Christians and others.

UN blue helmets are called in after a cease fire and are generally agreed upon by both sides. As of yet there is no cease fire in the Syrian Civil War.

What's also political is the West's enabling of the Zionists' oppression of the Palestinian peoples what with their stop gap measures to deal with the Jewish refugee problem after WWII and the US' Christianist Zionists, Arabophobes and Islamophobes controlling Israel policy.

georgeob1 wrote:
Israel has to its discredit put territorial expansion ahead of justice for its neighbors since the 1967 war. However, that is a fairly common failing in today's world, and the outrage directed at it by the cant of contemporary politicval correctitude could not possibly be more disdcordant with the relative silence attending the ISIS (and Russian) outrages in current news.

The world powers are countering ISIS in light of the fact of the difficulties involved in assisting those forces opposed to both ISIS and the Syrian government. In regard to Russia, they have responded with increased military presences in the areas threatened by Russia and sanctions in light of the fact that those European powers are hamstrung by their reliance on Russian petroleum.

Where are the sanctions against Israel by these world powers? Where is the military assistance in defense of the beleaguered Palestinian populations against the Zionists' oppression?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Tue 30 Jun, 2015 12:27 pm
@Foofie,
In 1948 there was a British Administered mandate (first from the League of Nations, later affirmed by the UN) in a territory of the Former Ottoman Empire known for centuries as Palestine. It was a device of convenience for the Brtitish who had made incompatible promises to both the Hashemite Arabs and European Ziuonists that they didn't intend to keep.

A civil war broke out between mostly recent European Jewish immigrants from WWII and the Palestinian residents. The result weas the nation of Israel and the expansion of Jordan into a region of the former Palestine known as the West Bank. It is apparently the subject of this discussion.

I'm neither an opponent nor an advocate of Zionism. I don't propose the destruction of Israel nor the oppression of Jews. Neither do I propose the destruction or the oppression of the people around Israel. Neither do I accept the notion that either required the destruction of the other. Tolerance and justice are required of everyone for lasting peace.

McTag
 
  5  
Tue 30 Jun, 2015 12:54 pm
@Ionus,

Quote:
Now you say you are concerned about Arab lives ? Bit late old chap...


Let me see if I understand your position here: the British badly mishandled the Palestine protectorate and made contradictory and incompatible promises to the protagionists, so Israel should be allowed to continue with policies towards its neighbours which would have shamed the Nazis, and everyone else should mind their own business?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Tue 30 Jun, 2015 02:07 pm
@McTag,
Good point McTag ! Human history is a series of tragedies and unforseen consequences, occasionally punctuated with great achievements. Most of us lurch from error to error ourselves while entertaining ourselves with the errors of others.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Tue 30 Jun, 2015 06:59 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

I'm neither an opponent nor an advocate of Zionism. I don't propose the destruction of Israel nor the oppression of Jews. Neither do I propose the destruction or the oppression of the people around Israel. Neither do I accept the notion that either required the destruction of the other. Tolerance and justice are required of everyone for lasting peace.




Well, that's mighty generous of you. However, Israel only exists today, based on not being annihilated in four major wars with actual Arab armies. So, every day that Israel continues to exist as a Zionist State there is peace. You might be equating "peace" with all sides being happy. No one said a win-win peace. Also, you and others do not seem to find it important that the displaced people that made up much of the original Israel citizenry, after WWII, could not, I repeat, could not return to their original homeland. Those loving Europeans of the Catholic faith were already living in their prior homes, and had no intention of vacating them. Plus, I know of instances of townspeople killing those that attempted to return to their prior home. The lack of tolerance started in Europe by your co-religionists. The only exception might be Russia, and they had their venting of anti-Semitism earlier in the late 19th century, and early 20th century. Perhaps, Eastern Orthodoxy does things earlier?
 

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