63
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Mon 8 Jun, 2015 09:34 am
I wonder what the numbers would look like for a single-state solution.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 8 Jun, 2015 11:13 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The results don't appear at all convincing. The root cause, I suspect, is the necessity of assuming a "two state solution" is indeed a solution to the behaviors of the last two plus geneerations, and the continuing unravelling of religious and social tolerance throughout the Moslem world.
Foofie
 
  1  
Mon 8 Jun, 2015 11:52 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

The results don't appear at all convincing. The root cause, I suspect, is the necessity of assuming a "two state solution" is indeed a solution to the behaviors of the last two plus geneerations, and the continuing unravelling of religious and social tolerance throughout the Moslem world.


The devil is in the use of the word "solution," in my opinion. If there was one state, or two states, I don't believe there would be a solution. Unless of course, all the Jewish Israelis decided that Zionism was an interesting experiment, and emigrated en masse to other countries. But, that is very unlikely, seeing how Jews find their gene pool interesting enough to continue, and the only assurance of that is being cloistered in an all Jewish state. Don't blame the Jews; the Romans started the ball rolling, and Christian Europe did a good job of being anti-Semitic for the remainder of the time. Let's be intellectually honest.
georgeob1
 
  5  
Mon 8 Jun, 2015 01:09 pm
@Foofie,
Just about every religious or ethnic group in the world has a case against others, based on historical past abuses. The attendant grudges often last a very long time. However the norms of civilized behaviour should put some statutes of limitations on them.

One man's recollection of historical recollections can too easily become another's rationalization for ongoing abuses of others.

The issues attendant to the Palestine question, bequethed to the world by historical conflicts going back over 2000 years; and amplified in the last century by the actions of the European powers in taking down the Ottoman Empire and deceiving both Arabs and Zionists with new opportunities they had no intention of tolerating, while also renewing the oppression of European Jews in an unprecedented scale, have created a particularly untractable situation.

Now with the breakdown of religious toleration within Islam and the expanding political instability that exists there, a particularly difficult situation has been rendered even more difficult. I believe it is naive for anyone to assume the various "solutions" defined over the past few decades are any longer solutions to anything.
Foofie
 
  1  
Wed 10 Jun, 2015 09:12 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Just about every religious or ethnic group in the world has a case against others, based on historical past abuses. The attendant grudges often last a very long time. However the norms of civilized behaviour should put some statutes of limitations on them.



The "attendant grudges" you reference have a context of how a demographic perceives passing time. Since you were raised Catholic, I'd guess you are not too interested how bible believing Protestants look upon the Old Testament stories as though they have value today. Similarly, Muslims and Jews may have a different conception of passing time, or at least when each ballgame ends, and a winner is declared.

And, it might not even be "attendant grudges." For example, I do not believe most Jews per se have a grudge against Germany. However, I do think there are more than a few Jews that consider many white Europeans just tribal beneath their veneer of national statehood. Meaning, many Jews consider their two millenia sojourn in Europe an accident waiting to happen, so to speak.

Wasn't a Christianized Europe, in the Middle Ages, supposed to make wars between the pagan tribes obsolete? So, wars continued into the Christian era, under modern statehood.

Your thinking is too idealistic, in my opinion. Perhaps correct in an earlier period when caring missionaries could teach heathens to have a conscience, and put on clothes? I suspect that a large percentage of the world population today just considers modernity a zero sum game, as far as who makes the rules (even though everyone can have a color tv).
georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 10 Jun, 2015 10:28 am
@Foofie,
We're not really very far apart on this. I don't see much in recorded human history that suggests humanity is on any kind of march towards perfection. On the contrary, one of the central lessons of history is that it is precisely the self-appointed zealots who presumed to know what was good for everyone else and tried to force it on them who have created the most human misery.

I agree, we are all a bit tribal at some level, though the definitions and boundaries of those tribes and the characteristics that distinguish them are quite variable. ( such distinctions are visible everywhere, even among Israeli Jews).

All that said there are times and places in human history where peace, tolerance, and human achievement were markedly greater than others and, conversely episodes of widespread misery and suffering.

It's only natural for us all to look for some organizing principle with which to achieve our ideals for ourselves, our tribe, our nation, etc. In practice that turns out to be very difficult to achieve, at least for an extended period of time, as the continuing turmoil of history amply illustrates.

I believe the dynamics of human behavior involve the same sensitive dependence on initial conditions (i.e. the behaviors of individual people) that makes the future state of highly non linear dynamical systems unknowable. That's why, even with the amazing advances in computing over the past five decades, we still can't accurately predict the weather more than five or six days into the future. (We can reliably estimate the average seasonal variations, but even there we get surprised).

Human behavior is certainly sufficiently perverse and non-linear (variable response in proportion to stimulus) to create the chaos we also observe in the physical world.

In such a situation I think it's a mistake to rely exclusively on historical memories - the human situation is far too variable and dynamic for that.

The best we can do is to protect ourselves from immediate danger and, at the same time, practice what we all know as virtue with others.
Foofie
 
  2  
Wed 10 Jun, 2015 11:22 am
@georgeob1,
Amen!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sun 14 Jun, 2015 08:12 am

Netanyahu: UN inquiry commission's report on 2014 Gaza war is 'waste of time'
Quote:
[...]
At the start of the weekly meeting, Cabinet Secretary Avichai Mendelblit gave Netanyahu the report Israel had prepared on Operative Protective Edge to counter the one being released by the UN.

Mendelblit told the ministers that the Israeli report describes the war crimes committed by Hamas and the other Palestinian organizations, the threats of terror against Israel from Gaza, the steps Israel had taken to act within accordance of international law and to avoid harming citizens, as well as the investigations and examinations ongoing in Israel since the end of the war.
[...]
"Israel is committed to international law not because of UN commissions of inquiry but because it is a democratic state," Netanyahu added. "We are not afraid to check ourselves when necessary. Israel's mechanism of investigation and examinations are the leading in the world. When there are credible claims, they are checked."
... ... ...
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sun 14 Jun, 2015 08:12 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
JERUSALEM, June 14 (Reuters) - Israel issued a report on Sunday arguing its 2014 Gaza offensive was lawful, a move aimed at pre-empting the release of findings of a U.N. war crimes investigation that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu scorned as a waste of time.

The 277-page report, which cited Israel's internal probes and statements from Western leaders backing its right to self-defence, suggested the Netanyahu government hoped to defuse criticism from the U.N. Human Rights Council (HRC) inquiry in advance.
[...]
The new Israeli government report disputed the U.N. figures, saying confirmed non-combatants made up 36 percent of the Palestinian dead and many militants were misidentified as civilians.

"Harm to the civilian population also occurred as the result of unfortunate -- yet lawful -- incidental effects of legitimate military action in the vicinity of civilians and their surroundings, and as a result of the inescapable constraint of commanders not being infallible, intelligence not being perfect and technological systems sometimes failing," the document said.
... ... ...
Source
Ionus
 
  -1  
Sun 14 Jun, 2015 08:22 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The UN is a waste of time ? How dare he... Very Happy Add up the Muslim nations and their sympathisers, then add up the Jewish nations and their sympathisers, and you have a fair idea of voting at the UN . Why dont they investigate war crimes by the Palestinians (aka PLO) ?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sun 14 Jun, 2015 08:36 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
The UN is a waste of time ? How dare he... Very Happy

You must have misread my above post and link


Quote:
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Sunday that reading the United Nations Human Rights Council's report on Israel's alleged war crimes during last summer's war in Gaza was a "waste of time."
Ionus
 
  1  
Sun 14 Jun, 2015 08:45 am
@Walter Hinteler,
No, I was being sarcastic . I agree with Nety that the report is a waste of time, except I think the UN is a waste of time . Thanks for putting it up, I did read it; and somehow I had missed it on the TV news .
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 14 Jun, 2015 08:51 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
and somehow I had missed it on the TV news .
You get live tv from Israel in Australia?
Ionus
 
  1  
Sun 14 Jun, 2015 08:59 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Only if it is deemed of great importance will the local 24hr news channel (Sky News) cover it, but we have CNN, BBC, ABC (USA), ABC (Aust), and SBS a channel that deals predominantly with migrant issues . Usually someone gives at least a passing commentary on the Middle East . I have been distracted with family problems so I might have missed it .
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 14 Jun, 2015 09:01 am
@Ionus,
Well, reuters published it about an hour, shortly after the Israel media reported it.
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Tue 16 Jun, 2015 06:16 am
@Walter Hinteler,


Quote:
As part of Israel’s intensifying effort to undermine potential criticism from the United Nations of its military assault on Gaza last summer, the country’s Foreign Ministry released an animated YouTube video on Monday mocking coverage of the conflict by Western reporters as absurdly inaccurate.
[...]
The Foreign Press Association in Tel Aviv was not amused by the video. The group said in a statement that it was “surprised and alarmed by the Israeli Foreign Ministry’s decision to produce a cartoon mocking the foreign media’s coverage of last year’s war in Gaza.”

“Posting misleading and poorly conceived videos on YouTube,” the journalists added, “is inappropriate, unhelpful and undermines the ministry, which says it respects the foreign press and its freedom to work in Gaza.”
... ... ...
Source

Statement of the Foreign Press Association
revelette2
 
  2  
Tue 16 Jun, 2015 07:10 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Wonder if they realize they will only be talking to those who pretty much agree with Israel anyway? I mean surely that shaded video won't persuade those in the United Nation?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jun, 2015 06:00 am
@revelette2,
Both Israelis and Palestinians may have committed war crimes, UN Gaza inquiry finds
Quote:
An independent United Nations inquiry has found that both Israel and Palestinian armed groups may have committed war crimes during the 2014 hostilities.

The report, released today, found “substantial information pointing to the possible commission of war crimes by both Israel and Palestinian armed groups.”
... ... ...
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jun, 2015 09:15 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Israel says UN Gaza Report 'morally flawed'Israel's Foreign Ministry said on Monday that a UN report on the Gaza war of 2014 had "essential failings."

"It is well know that the entire process that led to the production of this report was politically motivated and morally flawed from the outset," the foreign ministry statement said, according to the AFP news agency.

The foreign ministry added the UN Human Rights Council, which commissioned by the report, was a "notoriously biased institution."

"Israel will consider the report in light of these essential failings. It would encourage all fair-minded observers to do the same," the ministry statement said.
oralloy
 
  0  
Mon 22 Jun, 2015 10:25 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
Wonder if they realize they will only be talking to those who pretty much agree with Israel anyway? I mean surely that shaded video won't persuade those in the United Nation?

Why talk to anti-Semites to begin with?

Persuade the Nazis at the UN??? Any attempt to do so would be a waste of time no matter what.
0 Replies
 
 

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