Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

@RABEL222,

It's a common tactic. Change the subject. The fact that Russia does not receive billions of dollars in US military aid is conveniently ignored.

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@georgeob1,

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However, I believe that public indignation over that is becoming a good deal higher when Israel is the offending party than most other offenders (and in todays world many grotesque offenses abound). Why is that ??? I believe this is a question that Europeans, in particular, should address to themselves.

In most cases, the Israeli government is "the offending party" when it comes to Palestinians. By persistently occupying Palestinian land and building settlements, the Zionist nation continues to commit an ongoing crime.

Israel has a mighty army while the Palestinians possess no army. When Israel attacks the Palestinians in most cases they are sitting ducks, even when they try to hide in hospitals, the hospitals are bombed. The US vetoes all resolutions against the rogue nation. This is wrong and is doing Israel a great deal of harm while onlookers see the injustice of allowing Israel to walk free after her damage against the Palestinians, cruelty, repression, exploitation, discrimination, intolerance.. The US understands that Israel will never stop building in the West Bank until America stops all financial aid of 3~5 Billion annually; American politics simply will not allow this to happen.

There is a growing anger within America just barely below the surface at the injustice and the humiliation of the Palestinians. The American taxpayer feels amply frustrated at their inability to change the existing state of affairs. Israel has gotten so bold that its leader, the PM, came to the US without first consulting the head of the nation, President Obama, gives a speech to the joint session of Congress, all the while giving the president the finger. Netanyahu conspires with the Republican Party and its Speaker of the House, John Boehner, to decide how to implement foreign policy regarding Iran...under the GWB administration the Neoconservatives for Israel allowed the Zionist nation full sway. The action between Boehner and Netanyahu, the latter, a foreign government, is having a gradual effect which, in the long run, will be extremely harmful to America. Why in the hell should a foreign country interfere with US politics?

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I guess we all ought to "thank god" we Americans never "occupied" Germany and Japan.

Or are we also considered to be not a democracy?

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@Frank Apisa,

And Austria.

In Germany, the occupation ended on May 05, 1955. Legally, the occupation was ended with the "Treaty on the Final Settlement With Respect to Germany" (aka Two Plus Four Agreement), effective from 15 March 1991 onwards.

Actually, all Allied Zones (in Germany and Austria) were named and called "Zone of Occupation" - Mrs. Walter's wife got her first ID-card shortly after she was born, "Citizen of the British Zone of Occupation", in 1949, after the foundation of the Federal Republic of Germany.
And until 1956, cars here got number plates started with BR (= British Occupied Zone hineland), even those in Westphalia or Lower Saxony. (The Americans use AB = American Occupied Zone Bavaria, even in Hessia)

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Brilliant Result.

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Israel 0-3 Wales

Wales top Group B thanks to comprehensive win
•Gareth Bale scores his 15th and 16th goals for Wales
•Aaron Ramsey with his ninth international goal
•Comfortable victory sets up the visit of Belgium in June
Gareth Bale scored twice to send Wales two points clear at the top of Group B as they beat 10-man Israel.

Arsenal midfielder Aaron Ramsey headed Chris Coleman's side ahead from Bale's assist in first-half stoppage time.

Real Madrid's Bale doubled the lead with a free-kick from the edge of the area after 50 minutes.

Israel's hopes of a comeback ended when Eytan Tibi earned a second yellow card a minute later. Bale claimed the third with a left-foot finish on 77 minutes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/31997087

That's why they call it the beautiful game.

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@korkamann,

Dont forget all the military aid we give the Isralei war mongers.

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@RABEL222,

RABEL222 wrote:

Don't forget all the military aid we give the Israeli warmongers.

Oh I did not forget. Israel gets top of the line military equipment from the US. America makes sure Israel retains the military edge over all her neighbors.

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@korkamann,

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Israel has a mighty army while the Palestinians possess no army.

In 1948 and every war since it was the other way around . When Egypt signed a peace deal the Arabs lost interest in a war and decided to try political means . Have you forgotten you are dealing with Islamists in Palestine ? Have you forgotten all the Skyjackings done by Palestinians ? I think you have Stockholm Complex where you want to apologise to those holding you hostage .

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@Ionus,

You are a revisionist idiot who knows nothing of history. I have lived during the times you are speaking of. The Palestinians have launched inefective rockets into Israel because Israel has been stealing Pal. property and the ultraconservative Jews have been murdering Pal. citizens while Isralie Solders stand by and do nothing unless a Palestinian tries to fight back than the military takes a hand in the murders and calls it self-defense.

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@RABEL222,

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You are a revisionist idiot who knows nothing of history.

Oh dear...it must be true if you say it .

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I have lived during the times you are speaking of.

Were you the only person alive during those times ? But that does explain a lot . The aged are very radical in their views because they want to change things before they die . Ring for nursey .

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The Palestinians have launched inefective rockets into Israel

Now I see where I was wrong....it is only ATTEMPTED murder ....anyway, they are only Jewish babies and children in the firing line...its not like the world hasnt tried to exterminate them before...they should be used to it by now....bloody whinging Jews complaining of attempted murder...I'm on your side now .

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@Ionus,

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In 1948 and every war since it was the other way around. When Egypt signed a peace deal the Arabs lost interest in a war and decided to try political means. Have you forgotten you are dealing with Islamists in Palestine? Have you forgotten all the Skyjackings done by Palestinians? I think you have Stockholm Complex where you want to apologise to those holding you hostage.

... AND HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN that the Palestinians were and still are fighting in defense of their land! In 1948, 56% of Palestinian land was given to the European Zionists; the realization that Palestine already had people there and all the trappings of a burgeoning state was overlooked by the powers carving up the land; there were hospitals, schools of higher learnings and all the surrounding neighbors recognized the land as distinctly belonging to the Palestinians people. Palestine is Arab land ... every bit of it. The number of Israeli Jews killed pales in correlation to the number of Palestinians slaughtered by the dozens in myriad conflicts with the Zionist nation. How soon we forget when a few months ago a young Palestinian boy was burned alive by militant extremist Israelis. What is the difference in burning alive a human being and the same kind of agony experienced by Jews in WW2?

How soon Jews forget the hatred shown towards them once upon a time. Did not mankind learn anything? The Jews were given 56% of the land in Palestine, but it seems Israel is a little greedy and wants it all...two peoples have to live on that land, the Palestinians and the Jews. Israel is following South Africa's previous policy of apartheid. Well, the final chapter has yet to be written....we have yet to read the epilogue.

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@korkamann,

Israel was nurtured by terrorist acts including some (Lehi) willing to work with Nazi Germany during WW2. Upon its conception they engaged in massive ethnic cleansing, (which is still going on to this day.) That doesn't sound like the actions of tiny military weak country.

They weren't weak, far from it, they were heavily armed with weapons smuggled in by the Americans and stolen from the British. And their troops were full of battle hardened WW2 veterans, some British deserters, others demobbed GIs.

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@korkamann,

The Palestinians are pawns in the hands of their own leaders who dont care about any deaths, so long as they continue to out breed the Israelis then they know the problem wont go away and they can keep it up as long as Israel can . If you want to allocate blame, at least portion the correct amount to the Palestinian authorities .

The belligerent Jews were in Judea and Israel till the Romans massacred them leaving the moderates throughout the Empire, the descendants of whom the Nazis very nearly exterminated . I can accept a little belligerence from a people so badly treated .

The UN took their land away from them, tell the UN to give it back and put the Jews somewhere else . Where do we put today's Jews ? Are they entitled to a homeland because the people known as the Palestinians already have a homeland . They are the same people as Jordan and Lebanon .

I'll see your boy burnt to death and raise you four Israeli toddlers who had their heads smashed open on rocks by Palestinian Terrorists because the Israeli military were closing in . Draw up a list of terror attacks and see who is winning the score, the Islamists or the Jews .

Where do you stand with other Islamic Terrorists ? Was 9/11 a cheering event for you like so many Arabs ?

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@izzythepush,

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Israel was nurtured by terrorist acts

And your Pals (isnt that a lovely name ? Makes me want to have a picnic with them) never committed a terrorist attack in their lives . The two words, Palestinian and Terrorist, have been heard together for the past 60 years .

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some (Lehi) willing to work with Nazi Germany during WW2.

I hope you arent suggesting the Holocaust was deserved ? Do you have any awareness of whose side the Arabs were on ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world

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Massive programs of propaganda were launched in the Arab world, first by Fascist Italy and later on by Nazi Germany. The Nazis in particular focused on impacting the new generation of political thinkers and activists.

In 1932, Hitler was given the name Abu Ali in Syria, and he was named Muhammad Haidar in Egypt. Erwin Rommel was almost as popular as Hitler. Some Arabs allegedly stated "Heil Rommel" as a common greeting in Arab countries. Arabs thought the Germans would free them from the rule of the old colonial powers France and Britain. After France's defeat by Nazi Germany in 1940, some Arabs were shouting against the French and British imperialists around the streets of Damascus: "No more Monsieur, no more Mister, Allah's in Heaven and Hitler's on earth." Posters in Arabic stated: "In heaven God is your ruler, on earth Hitler" were frequently displayed in shops in the towns of Syria.

There were some wealthy Arabs who traveled to Germany in the 1930s and allegedly brought back fascist ideals and incorporated them into Arab Nationalism. One of the principal founders of Ba'athist thought and the Ba'ath Party, Zaki al-Arsuzi, stated that Fascism and Nazism had greatly influenced Ba'athist ideology. An associate of al-Arsuzi, Sami al-Jundi, wrote:

"We were racists. We admired the Nazis. We were immersed in reading Nazi literature and books that were the source of the Nazi spirit. We were the first who thought of a translation of Mein Kampf. Anyone who lived in Damascus at that time was witness to the Arab inclination toward Nazism. Michel Aflaq a founder of the Ba'athist philosophy admired Hitler and the Nazis for standing up to Britain and America. This admiration would combine aspects of Nazism into Ba'athism."

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they were heavily armed

Yes they had small arms smuggled in but most were after their first victories . Heavily armed is an example of you exaggerating to make a cause you believe in acceptable to a reasonable person . Did they have tanks, planes or artillery like the Arabs ? A hint: No .

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@Ionus,

I never mentioned the Holocaust. I don't think it's justification for the persecution of the Palestinians who are the indigenous people after all. Whenever the supporters of Palestinian persecution have to resort to the Holocaust, they've lost the argument. It's far easier talking about that than dealing with what's going on in the here and now.

In reality Israel was a lot more accommodating to the Nazis.

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Lehi split from the Irgun militant group in 1940 in order to continue fighting the British during World War II. Lehi initially sought an alliance with Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, offering to fight alongside them against the British in return for the transfer of all Jews from Nazi-occupied Europe to Palestine. Believing that Nazi Germany was a lesser enemy of the Jews than Britain, Lehi twice attempted to form an alliance with the Nazis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

That's right during WW2, long after the horrors of Kristallnacht.

And it doesn't end there.

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During the second world war the future South African prime minister John Vorster was interned as a Nazi sympathiser. Three decades later he was being feted in Jerusalem.

In 1976, Israel invited the South African prime minister, John Vorster - a former Nazi sympathiser and a commander of the fascist Ossewabrandwag that sided with Hitler - to make a state visit.

Leaving unmentioned Vorster's wartime internment for supporting Germany, Israel's prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin, hailed the South African premier as a force for freedom and made no mention of Vorster's past as he toured the Jerusalem memorial to the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis. At a state banquet, Rabin toasted "the ideals shared by Israel and South Africa: the hopes for justice and peaceful coexistence". Both countries, he said, faced "foreign-inspired instability and recklessness".

And a man like (Nazi) Vorster? "I wouldn't put him on the list of the greatest leaders of our time," says Peres.

The biggest secret of all was the nuclear one. Israel provided expertise and technology that was central to South Africa's development of its nuclear bombs.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/07/southafrica.israel

That's right, when Israel came face to face with a real Nazi they gave him the A bomb.

Let's stick to the here and now. Israel is the only country on Earth that gave nuclear technology to Nazis.

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

And your Pals (isnt that a lovely name ?)

Not at all, it's a word used by bigots.

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@izzythepush,

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I never mentioned the Holocaust. I don't think it's justification for the persecution of the Palestinians who are the indigenous people, after all. Whenever the supporters of Palestinian persecution have to resort to the Holocaust, they've lost the argument.

I'm inclined to disagree to a modest degree. It is due to the Holocaust that the mass of European Jews finds themselves in Arab land. The persecution of European Jews should stand as an out-and-out grim reminder of the dark side of mankind, a place we should never go again.

The Arabs ask modern Israel to return to its '67 borders and Israel has said by its definitive actions, no way! Instead its actions mimics hatred similar to its WW2 fanatics, going ahead full steam, with only the goal of achieving all of Palestine with just a tiny clump of land into which to squeeze the Palestinians, if not eventually chasing them out altogether.

Absolutely the Holocaust does not justify today's apartheid mistreatment of the Palestinians; however, it serves as a reminder that Israelis should at least try being more sensitive to the Palestinian people who are oppressed by the Zionist government. If not the Europeans Jews who suffered 6 millions of lost lives during humanity's darkest days (the true number of murdered Jews may never be known), who then will commiserate with these unfortunate people who are deemed Palestinian "vermin" by some who are trying to defend their land?

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@korkamann,

Good post, with some good points. You would think humans would learn by their own history, but, unfortunately, it rarely seems to be the case.

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@korkamann,

As the old saying goes, "history repeats itself!" It seems the Jews of Israel have not learned much from the holocaust. They experienced the worst kind of treatment from others in Germany and Poland, and they seem those lessons didn't teach them much in human dignity. Continuing to steal Palestinian lands from those occupied territories in Israel by the Jews will only create more friction for the future for the Jews.

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@korkamann,

korkamann wrote:

The persecution of European Jews should stand as an out-and-out grim reminder of the dark side of mankind, a place we should never go again.

I couldn't agree with you more, which is why I, unlike Ionus, have robustly and repeatedly condemned Carlos le Baron's Holocaust denial and Krumple's belittling the true extent of the Holocaust. Perhaps Ionus was unaware of their existence, he's only been back on A2K a few weeks. Or perhaps, like some Israel supporters, Oralboy being a prime example, he thinks Holocaust denial is fine as long as the denier shares his repugnant right wing views on other matters.

The Holocaust should be remembered, and I have never suggested otherwise, but lazily using the Holocaust to justify the persecution of the Palestinians is an insult to all the victims of the Nazis. Not just the Jewish ones either, thousands of Slavs, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, and People with Learning Difficulties perished in the Nazi slaughterhouses, not to mention all the other people living in the occupied territories branded spies or terrorists by the Nazis. If, like Oralboy, you also give a free pass to right wing Holocaust deniers, it's the worst form of hypocrisy imaginable.

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Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

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