62
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2014 06:18 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Turmus Ayya is a Palestinian town located in the Ramallah and al-Bireh Governorate in the West Bank. Its surrounding villages are Sinjil, Khirbet Abu Falah and the Israeli settlement of Shilo.
According to Israeli sources, Abu Ein, the Palestinian minister in charge of the struggle over the West Bank separation fence, was taking part in protest against the illegal settlement outpost Adei Ad when he was killed by an officer from the Border Police ... or a tear gas bomb ... or ...

I just saw an article about Europe's UN bid for the Palestinians. I like the modification that Germany is pushing for. Don't really like the resolution overall though.

Going to cut-n-paste the article I think, and then comment on it.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2014 06:36 am
Quote:
Three EU powers draft Security Council resolution on Israeli-Palestinian deal
Backed by France, Germany, Britain, draft meant to be counterweight to more one-sided Palestinian resolution, which comes as Israel heads for elections.

The three leading European Union countries, France, Germany and Britain, are drafting a UN Security Council resolution outlining the principles of an Israeli-Palestinian final-status deal and setting a two-year timetable for completing negotiations on such an agreement.

Senior Israeli diplomats familiar with the draft resolution's provisions said the Europeans have also briefed Washington on it.

The Israeli diplomats, who asked to remain anonymous due to the sensitivity of the issue, said the move was initially led by France, a permanent member of the Security Council. Over the last two weeks, however, the French have managed to persuade both Britain -- another permanent Security Council member -- and Germany. The latter isn't on the Security Council, but its support is important due to both its international influence and its close ties with Israel.

The EU draft is meant to serve as a counterweight to an extreme, one-sided resolution drafted by the Palestinians, which is being backed by the Arab League and formally sponsored at the Security Council by Jordan. The Palestinian draft calls for an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank within two years and the immediate acceptance of Palestine as a full UN member. The Palestinians would like their resolution brought to a vote in the second half of December, before the Christmas holiday.

These UN moves come at a particularly bad time for Israel, given that the government has just fallen and an election campaign has begun. Moreover, a diplomatic crisis over such a Security Council resolution is liable to focus the election campaign on the Israeli-Palestinian issue and push Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, due to pressure from his right-leaning electorate, into more extreme retaliatory measures against the Palestinian Authority.

Netanyahu is very worried about both the Palestinian and the European initiatives, but hasn't managed to formulate a strategy to preempt them. His poor relations with both Europe and Washington make it harder to either thwart the Palestinian proposal or soften the European one to bring it closer to Israel's positions.

It's not yet clear to what extent the recent political developments in Israel will affect either the Palestinian or the European timetable. Senior PA officials said their effort to push their own resolution wouldn't be affected. "It's impossible to freeze everything and wait for Netanyahu to fall, since after the election, perhaps the negotiations won't be about a Palestinian state, but about an apartheid plan," one said.

The French, British and Germans want to present a more balanced resolution that could serve as a basis for renewed Israeli-Palestinian talks and win American backing. Thus, for instance, the European draft doesn't call for immediately recognizing Palestine as a full UN member. Moreover, it allots two years for final-status negotiations and envisions an Israeli withdrawal beginning only after that.

But the three European powers still haven't agreed among themselves on all the issues. There's a consensus on calling for a Palestinian state based on the 1967 lines, with territorial swaps. But there's an argument over whether the resolution should address the issue of Israel being the nation-state of the Jewish people -- a clause Germany is pushing to include.

Over the past week, French, British and German diplomats have held talks at UN headquarters in New York with the Palestinians, Jordanians and representatives of other Arab states in an effort to come up with a mutually acceptable draft. But so far, the Palestinians oppose the European proposal and insist on advancing their own.

Israeli diplomats said their impression is that the Palestinians want to advance their extreme draft in order to isolate the United States and force U.S. President Barack Obama to veto it. But senior Palestinian official involved in the talks with the Europeans rejected the claim that PA President Mahmoud Abbas opposes any European initiative or wants a confrontation with America.

"Our insistence stems from one simple reason, which is that in every conversation we've had with the Americans and Europeans so far, we haven't heard a proposal that could meet the Palestinians' minimum demands," one said.

The Palestinians' impression from their talks with the Europeans, one PA official added, is that Germany is trying to soften the European draft by eliminating the fixed timetable -- which would instead simply lead to another round of talks that could last for years. "We can't accept a draft that doesn't include agreement on the border and a timetable for ending the occupation," he said.

French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius has briefed U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry on the European initiative, but the Americans aren't yet actively involved in the negotiations over its wording. Israeli diplomats said the Americans' position on the European proposal is unclear, and it seems they haven't yet made a decision.

The Americans very much want to avoid casting a veto on any resolution relating to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, due to their efforts to forge a coalition of Arab states against the Islamic State. And Israeli diplomats noted that the European resolution would be even harder for the Americans to veto than the Palestinian one.

Some people in the U.S. administration, headed by Kerry, are even considering submitting an American resolution to the Security Council, but the White House currently opposes this. Right now, Obama and his team want to focus on their negotiations with Iran and the war against the Islamic State rather embarking on a new Israeli-Palestinian peace initiative.

Netanyahu is very worried about both the Palestinian and the European initiatives, but hasn't managed to formulate a strategy to preempt them.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.629871
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2014 06:48 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
I just saw an article about Europe's UN bid for the Palestinians.

oralloy wrote:
The three leading European Union countries, France, Germany and Britain, are drafting a UN Security Council resolution outlining the principles of an Israeli-Palestinian final-status deal and setting a two-year timetable for completing negotiations on such an agreement.
Just because three out of some 50 European countries (and out of 27 EU-countries) are said to do such, doesn't make it "Europe's UN bid" at all.

Besides that, it has been reported the first time about three weeks ago that France, the UK and Germany are drafting their own resolution ... and there's no further news about that.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2014 06:57 am
@oralloy,
OK, I mentioned that I didn't like the proposal overall, but did like the proposed German modification.


The reason I don't like the proposal overall is because "land for peace" was supposed to give Israel the security of peaceful acceptance in exchange for giving up their land.

However, this deal threatens to have Israel give up their land without receiving any peaceful acceptance from the Palestinians in turn. Notice that in the article the Palestinians say that this EU deal is unacceptable to them:
Quote:
But so far, the Palestinians oppose the European proposal and insist on advancing their own.
Quote:
"Our insistence stems from one simple reason, which is that in every conversation we've had with the Americans and Europeans so far, we haven't heard a proposal that could meet the Palestinians' minimum demands," one said.

What will happen if this EU proposal passes the UN Security Council, and the Palestinians reject the proposal and refuse to make peace? Does Israel still have to give up the land even though they aren't getting peaceful acceptance from the Palestinians?


This same concern is also why I like the proposed German modification:
Quote:
But there's an argument over whether the resolution should address the issue of Israel being the nation-state of the Jewish people -- a clause Germany is pushing to include.

If Israel is to give up any more land, they need to get full acceptance from the Palestinians in return, and that means acceptance of Israel as a Jewish state.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2014 07:00 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Just because three out of some 50 European countries (and out of 27 EU-countries) are said to do such, doesn't make it "Europe's UN bid" at all.

Good grief. Nitpicking.


Walter Hinteler wrote:
Besides that, it has been reported the first time about three weeks ago that France, the UK and Germany are drafting their own resolution ... and there's no further news about that.

I just heard about it now. So now is when I'm going to comment on it.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2014 07:06 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Nitpicking.
I don't think that these three countries can be said to speak for Europe - there are quite a few with a totally different opinion. Besides that, I sincerely doubt that there is an agreed "European opinion" in any subject - even the 27 EU-countries don't speak with one voice.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2014 10:53 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Some Palestinian high level official just got killed I gather. Tried to infiltrate a settlement and got gunned down (well duh). BBC is showing a bunch of wailing teenage girls, presumably relatives.
Abu Ein was taking part in the protest held as part of the struggle of Palestinian villages Turmusiya and Al Mugheir against the illegal settlement outpost of Adei Ad, which has taken control of their land and prevented them from cultivating it.

To mark International Human Rights Day, Israeli rights group Yesh Din on Wednesday petitioned the High Court of Justice to evacuate the outpost and organised that protest.

Witnesses say Zaid Abu Ein was hit by Border Police troops; the IDF says he died of a heart attack, but is still investigating the incident.
The Palestinian Authority has agreed to allow an Israeli pathologist from the Abu Kabir Forensics Institute to take part in the autopsy; additional pathologists from Jordan will also be present.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2014 02:07 pm
The French and Irish parliaments have become the latest in Europe to call on their governments to recognise an independent state of Palestine.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2014 07:58 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
The French and Irish parliaments have become the latest in Europe to call on their governments to recognise an independent state of Palestine.

Do these people really not see that they are only making the problem worse?

By giving support for the Palestinians' demand that they be given the land without having to make peace with Israel, they will only make the Palestinians even more intransigent.

Meanwhile, absent a Palestinian willingness to make peace, Israel will have every right to maintain full military control over the entirety of Area C.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 12 Dec, 2014 01:40 am
@oralloy,
The simple fact that the expanding illegal settlements are the problem only proves your total ignorance. Get your head out of your arse.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2014 06:31 am
Hamas taken off EU terror blacklist
Quote:
Move comes as draft resolution on Palestinian statehood expected to be tabled at UN security council in New York

The European Union’s second highest court has ordered the removal of the Islamist group Hamas from a terrorist blacklist, citing procedural problems with the listing. It added, however, that the group’s assets should remain frozen for three months pending an almost certain appeal.

The decision came at the beginning of day of what promised to be intense diplomacy around the Israeli-Palestinian issue, with a draft resolution on Palestinian statehood expected to be tabled at the UN security council in New York later in the day.

In addition, the European parliament in Strasbourg was due to vote on a motion on the conditional and symbolic recognition of a Palestinian state, following similar votes in the UK, Sweden, France, Portugal and Ireland.

Wednesday will also see a rare meeting to discuss the Geneva conventions in Switzerland to discuss human rights in Gaza and the occupied West Bank. Although the meeting is being shunned by the US, Australia and Canada, Israeli efforts to persuade European states to stay away from the meeting were rebuffed.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2014 07:04 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Move comes as draft resolution on Palestinian statehood expected to be tabled at UN security council in New York

Any news of the European alternative proposal?

Particularly, any news of Germany's efforts to modify the European proposal to include Palestinian acceptance of a Jewish Israel?

If I'm not supposed to call it a "European" proposal, then call it whatever you want. The main point is: Is there any news about it?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2014 07:08 am
@oralloy,
It is a proposal discussed in the EU-parliament.
And this morning, the EU parliament backed the compromise resolution on the Palestinian state, following a deal among the main parties.

I don't know anything about "Germany's efforts to modify the European proposal to include Palestinian acceptance of a Jewish Israel" - EU-lawmakers from Germany belong to five or even six different parties.
Social Democrats, Lefts and Green members were among those to put forward motions for a symbolic vote on Wednesday to call on the EU's 28 members to recognize Palestine statehood now without conditions.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2014 07:18 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
EU-lawmakers from Germany belong to five or even six different parties,
Actually, German lawmakers are from eight different parties: most belong to the six main parliamentary group, two (a Neo-Nazi and a "joke-lawmaker") are non inscrits.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2014 08:07 am
@Walter Hinteler,
From the EU-Parliament's newsroom
Quote:
The European Parliament supports "in principle recognition of Palestinian statehood and the two state solution, and believes these should go hand in hand with the development of peace talks, which should be advanced", it says in a resolution passed on Wednesday. To support EU diplomatic efforts in the Middle East peace process, it also decided to launch a “Parliamentarians for Peace” initiative to bring together MEPs and MPs from the Israeli and Palestinian parliaments.

The resolution was drawn up by five political groups and passed by Parliament as a whole, by 498 votes to 88, with 111 abstentions.

Parliament reiterates "its strong support for the two-state solution on the basis of the 1967 borders, with Jerusalem as the capital of both states, with the secure State of Israel and an independent, democratic, contiguous and viable Palestinian State living side by side in peace and security on the basis of the right of self-determination and full respect of international law". MEPs also condemn in the strongest terms all acts of terrorism or violence.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2014 08:14 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I don't know anything about "Germany's efforts to modify the European proposal to include Palestinian acceptance of a Jewish Israel"

From the Haaretz article I posted on the previous page:
http://able2know.org/topic/127639-255#post-5836098
http://able2know.org/topic/127639-255#post-5836111

"But there's an argument over whether the resolution should address the issue of Israel being the nation-state of the Jewish people -- a clause Germany is pushing to include."
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2014 09:30 am
@oralloy,
I don't argue about your source. But elected lawmakers are member of the EU-Parliament, not countries.

Countries are represented in the European Council (heads of state or government of the member states),
and in
the Council of the European Union, which is part of the bicameral EU legislature (the other legislative body being the European Parliament) and represents the executive governments of the EU's member states.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2014 09:32 am
@Walter Hinteler,
You've given yourself a fool's errand trying to educate Oralboy. Your time would be better spent teaching a cat to play the violin.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2014 09:50 am
@izzythepush,
Stranger things have happened.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2014 10:43 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I don't argue about your source. But elected lawmakers are member of the EU-Parliament, not countries.

Countries are represented in the European Council (heads of state or government of the member states),
and in
the Council of the European Union, which is part of the bicameral EU legislature (the other legislative body being the European Parliament) and represents the executive governments of the EU's member states.

Countries are also represented in the United Nations Security Council, which is where the European alternative to the Palestinians' proposal would be presented.
 

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