Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

That is incorrect. Recognition alone does not make a state begin to exist. It still has to actually be there.

Indeed. And that's what other states declare with there recognition.

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

Neither the Palestinians nor the Europeans have the military might to bring a Palestinian state into existence against Israel's will.

That wasn't addressed by me or anyone else.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

If not, then clarification might be in order.

I don't accept your orders.

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Recognition alone does not make a state begin to exist. It still has to actually be there.

Indeed. And that's what other states declare with there recognition.

That is incorrect. Recognition by multiple states does not cause a state to exist. It still has to actually be there.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Neither the Palestinians nor the Europeans have the military might to bring a Palestinian state into existence against Israel's will.

That wasn't addressed by me or anyone else.

This failure to address reality is a major shortcoming in these plans.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Are trying to do your weaselly "name-calling while being vague about it" routine?
If not, then clarification might be in order.

I don't accept your orders.

It is pretty silly of you to pretend that I was giving orders. Weasel routine it is then, I guess.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

That is incorrect. Recognition by multiple states does not cause a state to exist. It still has to actually be there.

It is there. And embassies and legations are situated on its territory.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Recognition by multiple states does not cause a state to exist. It still has to actually be there.

It is there. And embassies and legations are situated on its territory.

Note that a state that exists will actually have control over its own territory. Control over your own territory is a pretty major part of being a state.

Much of the West Bank is controlled by the Israeli military.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

That wasn't addressed by me or anyone else.

Have you ever considered how these poorly-conceived plans are actually going to play out?

Let's say a bunch of other countries recognize the existence of a "Palestinian state", and let's say the ICC does as well -- ICC recognition might be the tripwire that provokes Israeli unilateral action.

Israel will say they have the right to have a defined and well-defended border with this "state" since it is openly hostile to them (recall that this recognition of a "Palestinian state" will be done in the absence of a peace agreement).

Israel will declare the Security Fence as their official border. They will finish building the Fence around Jerusalem and in the other places that so far they have been pressured not to complete it.

Then, having declared their border, they will annex all the land on their side of the new border. This will cut the Palestinians off from Jerusalem forever, and will permanently sever the Palestinian West Bank into northern and southern blocks.

Meanwhile Europe will be stuck being able to do nothing at all to actually bring this "Palestinian state" into existence.

So what is Europe's next move then? To whine very loudly in the hopes that someone will take pity on you? To just sit there in stunned and bitter silence? To start a war and watch the US side with Israel and defeat you?

Really, a little foresight now and then would do you guys a world of good.

0 Replies

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

Note that a state that exists will actually have control over its own territory. Control over your own territory is a pretty major part of being a state.

Interesting opinion.
So you think that e.g. all those states which had exile governments and which were recognised (here for instance by the allies during WWII) actually didn't exist?

2 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Well, not even the United States is really a country ! Or for that matter a collection of states of course! iI am not saying the 'land' doesn't exist of course, but it is NOT a country! It is the same all over the world and thos has huge consequences once people will find out, and they will.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Interesting opinion.

That's a fact, not an opinion.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

So you think that e.g. all those states which had exile governments and which were recognised (here for instance by the allies during WWII) actually didn't exist?

If they existed, it was not because of any "government in exile".

Nations like France tended to exist as puppets of the then-government of Germany.

Nations that were directly annexed by Germany simply ceased to exist.

Just before Yahoo messageboards imploded, Olivier and I had started to argue about the nature of Vichy France. I'd argued that many in the Vichy government were collaborating with the Nazis only because they hoped to lessen the harshness of the occupation. Olivier disagreed with me rather vehemently. Unfortunately the potential for an interesting discussion got lost in the tumult of a dying messageboard.

1 Reply

@Quehoniaomath,

Quehoniaomath wrote:

Well, not even the United States is really a country!

No, the US is actually a country.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

No, the US is actually a country.

Nope, can't be. You can figure this one out if you understand USA citizens don't have to pay taxes at all!

1 Reply

@Quehoniaomath,

Quehoniaomath wrote:

if you understand USA citizens don't have to pay taxes at all!

You might want to run that by the IRS for a second opinion.

0 Replies

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

That's a fact, not an opinion.

You quite often declare your opinions to be facts. (I'm too lazy to look up the number and English name for such in the ICD-10/DSM-5)

3 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

You quite often declare your opinions to be facts. (I'm too lazy to look up the number and English name for such in the ICD-10/DSM-5)

Oh nooooooooooooooo!!!
Not the DSM-5! It is full of lies and all the categories are really just made up by a bunch of idiots!!

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

You quite often declare your opinions to be facts.

No I don't.

But I do quite often point out that facts are facts, when someone who dislikes facts tries to pretend that facts are opinions.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

(I'm too lazy to look up the number and English name for such in the ICD-10/DSM-5)

Petty sniping won't make the facts go away.

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Nobody could ever describe Oralboy as the sharpest knife in the drawer. His definition of fact is anything that pops into his sewer like brain.

0 Replies

Palestinian State:

http://th00.deviantart.net/fs33/PRE/f/2008/301/b/5/Into_The_Pandemonium_by_stmayhem93.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandæmonium_(Paradise_Lost)

0 Replies

Some Palestinian high level official just got killed I gather. Tried to infiltrate a settlement and got gunned down (well duh). BBC is showing a bunch of wailing teenage girls, presumably relatives.

2 Replies

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

Quote:
Some Palestinian high level official just got killed I gather. Tried to infiltrate a settlement and got gunned down (well duh).

Turmus Ayya is a Palestinian town located in the Ramallah and al-Bireh Governorate in the West Bank. Its surrounding villages are Sinjil, Khirbet Abu Falah and the Israeli settlement of Shilo.

According to Israeli sources, Abu Ein, the Palestinian minister in charge of the struggle over the West Bank separation fence, was taking part in protest against the illegal settlement outpost Adei Ad when he was killed by an officer from the Border Police ... or a tear gas bomb ... or ...

1 Reply

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know