63
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Wed 7 May, 2014 09:03 pm
@oralloy,
It's evident you don't understand numbers. Try this link; it's published by the jewishvirtuallibrary.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/casualtiestotal.html<br />

Who's the murdering scum again?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2014 09:10 pm
@cicerone imposter,
From Wiki on 'civilian casualties.'
Quote:
Civilian casualty figures for the Israeli–Palestinian conflict from B'tselem and Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs between 1987 and 2010[223][224][225][226]
(numbers in parentheses represent casualties under age 18)
Year Deaths
.............Palestinians......... Israelis
2011 118 (13)................ 11 (5)
2010 81 (9).................... 8 (0)
2009 1034 (314)............. 9 (1)
2008 887 (128)............. 35 (4)
2007 385 (52)............... 13 (0)
2006 665 (140)............... 23 (1)
2005 190 (49)............... 51 (6)
2004 832 (181).............. 108 (8)
2003 588 (119).............. 185 (21)
2002 1032 (160)............ 419 (47)
2001 469 (80)............... 192 (36)
2000 282 (86).............. 41 (0)
1999 9 (0)........................ 4 (0)
1998 28 (3)...................... 12 (0)
1997 21 (5)...................... 29 (3)
1996 74 (11).................. 75 (8)
1995 45 (5)................... 46 (0)
1994 152 (24)................. 74 (2)
1993 180 (41)................. 61 (0)
1992 138 (23).................. 34 (1)
1991 104 (27).................. 19 (0)
1990 145 (25).................. 22 (0)
1989 305 (83)................. 31 (1)
1988 310 (50)................ 12 (3)
1987 22 (5)...................... 0 (0)
Total 7978 (1620)............1503 (142)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Wed 7 May, 2014 09:12 pm
Your infantile thumb's down only proves you are ignorant and stupid.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Wed 7 May, 2014 09:16 pm
@Germlat,
Germlat wrote:
I agree. Simply because you occupied it at some point...then abandoned it, doesn't mean it's yours forever

Just because someone is a Jew doesn't mean they lose their property rights when something is stolen from them.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 8 May, 2014 03:11 am
@Advocate,
I've really tried hard to find the "recent report" about "German children laughed their asses off at the exhibits in a former concentration camp".

I seriously do need your link.
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2014 04:12 am
@Germlat,
Quote:
I agree...for many there was shame in suffering and knowing how many looked away rather than helping. It was a terrifying time.


Many looked away out of fear of the Nazi machinery, rather than a lack of human caring, although, the general feeling of hatred for Jews was near public hysteria brought about by Goebbels, Minister of hyperbolic propaganda for the Nazis. On pain of death, some Germans helped Jewish-Germans to escape the Nazis, hid some of them until the war was over. Just the way some whites helped southern black slaves escape via the underground railroad.

Quote:
Germlat wrote:
Things are not that easily put aside, particularly when so many have ancestors who gave a first hand account of the events (as they should have).


Also, even tho there are new laws in Germany regarding the protection of Jews and other minorities, feelings and emotions cannot be mandated. I have heard and read that just below the surface in Germany, anti-Semitism is alive and well by *some* Germans. This is all the more puzzling since the Jewish-German population, before Hitler's rise, was very small, approaching 200,000, less than 1/2 a million. Many of this group was well assimilated with a few intermarriages, and many of these Jews had been there for so long they'd forgotten when their ancestors first arrived.

Quote:
Germlat wrote:
Still..generations later, it doesn't entitle a victim to become a victimizer. If you abandoned something...it doesn't belong to you forever simply because it once did.


Touché! With respect to some Jews, if they took the claim to court after 2,000 years, saying Palestine rightfully belonged to them after the Romans had claimed it and later, along with some others, they would be hysterically laughed out of the Halls of Justice. The first thing the judge will ask: can you produce a certified document supporting your claim "Palestine belong to the Jews?" Especially in the absence of an invisible god.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 8 May, 2014 05:03 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:
Also, even tho there are new laws in Germany regarding the protection of Jews and other minorities, feelings and emotions cannot be mandated.

The related passage in our criminal code (Section 130 [Incitement to hatred] and following) isn't that new: it dates back to the times of the "anti-Socialist-laws" in the 19th century. The actual version is of as 1960 (with slight changes e.g. to make it conform with the internet media.

New, however, is (4) in that section (since 2005): "(4) Whosoever publicly or in a meeting disturbs the public peace in a manner that violates the dignity of the victims by approving of, glorifying, or justifying National Socialist rule of arbitrary force shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine."
[That would be valid for the crime, Advocat said he read about recently. And that's the reason why I ask for his source.]
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2014 05:20 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:
I have heard and read that just below the surface in Germany, anti-Semitism is alive and well by *some* Germans. This is all the more puzzling since the Jewish-German population, before Hitler's rise, was very small, approaching 200,000, less than 1/2 a million. Many of this group was well assimilated with a few intermarriages, and many of these Jews had been there for so long they'd forgotten when their ancestors first arrived.
The majority of German Jews fears anti-semitism here most (jobless is the main of Jews in other European countries) - 49% say that they have been confronted with a sentence like "Israel deals with Palestinians like Nazis behaved against the Jews".

Discrimination and hate crime against Jews in EU Member States: experiences and perceptions of antisemitism

Antisemitism: Summary overview of the situation in the European Union 2001–2012

Generally, I think that anti-Semitism is as high in Germany as it elsewhere in Europe. You don't see it so much - but it gets more published like elsewhere - due to our laws, it's more below the surface than openly said/written.

1933 the number of Jews in Germany was 502,799.
1939, there were 233,846 Jews living in Germany (213,930 following the Jewish religion).
Germlat
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2014 05:51 am
@oralloy,
Ollaroy: what you are saying sounds like entitlement. How are property rights determined in your mind?
oralloy
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2014 08:57 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:
Touché! With respect to some Jews, if they took the claim to court after 2,000 years, saying Palestine rightfully belonged to them after the Romans had claimed it and later, along with some others, they would be hysterically laughed out of the Halls of Justice. The first thing the judge will ask: can you produce a certified document supporting your claim "Palestine belong to the Jews?" Especially in the absence of an invisible god.

You slander the courts when you pretend that they share your anti-Semitism.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2014 08:57 am
@Germlat,
Germlat wrote:
what you are saying sounds like entitlement.

People who own something are entitled to possession of it.


Germlat wrote:
How are property rights determined in your mind?

The person who owns something, owns it until they agree to give it up (usually as part of a sale).
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2014 09:40 am
@oralloy,
You continue to contradict yourself. You say,
Quote:
The person who owns something, owns it until they agree to give it up (usually as part of a sale).


The Jewish settlements are force takeover of Palestinian lands without compensation.

http://davidduke.com/how-israel-steals-palestinian-land-the-blueprint-used-all-over-the-world/

Proof. On youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szp7hXBuTCw
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2014 10:11 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

It's not about who can have more babies; it's about the restrictions against Palestinians migrating to Israel - and their return.


In your course on international ethics it might be about what your posit. In the real world, it's about who can populate faster.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2014 10:13 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

By then, Israel will have a muslim majority and can revise its own definition as a jewish state...


Maybe, maybe not. Don't sneeze at the fecudity of the ultra Othodox.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2014 10:13 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

By then, Israel will have a muslim majority and can revise its own definition as a jewish state...


Maybe, maybe not. Don't sneeze at the fecundity of the ultra Othodox.
Foofie
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2014 10:18 am
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

Olivier5 wrote:

top lying -- they are hundreds of thousands of Jews in the West Bank.


Correct! But this is despite the Pal prohibitions. They are there by force of arms. Didn't you know that?


Nobody compains when a good neighborhood goes bad; people just move out. The west bank Palestineans now know how Jews felt when neighborhoods changed in urban U.S. settings. Just because many Jews are "white" doesn't mean they can't change a neighborhood for the worse, from the Palestineans perspective (read sarcastic).
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2014 10:20 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Advocate wrote:
It was recently reported that a group of German children laughed their asses off at the exhibits in a former concentration camp.
Could you provide the source for that, please.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/04/24/holocaust-germany-nazi-hitler-jewish-column/8118959/
Advocate
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2014 10:24 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

It's more than 'colonization.' It's imprisonment. The Palestinians do not have the freedom to enter those settlements. Palestinians are surrounded by barbed wire fence and tall fences. Did you see the fence around Bethlehem? If not, I can post a picture of it - that I took. Also, many of the barbed wire fences around Jerusalem.


Are you that dense? The people in the settlements are constant targets of the Pals who surround the settlements. The former are regularly stoned by the latter. Thus, the Jews need fences to protect themselves. Good fences make for good neighbors.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2014 10:30 am
@Advocate,
Thanks.

Just to add another anecdotical story:
my niece wasn't allowed to stay in her class when she was as an exchange student in Indianapolis two years ago. She protested and finally could stay there. (As reason was given: because you are German.)
She said that it was a very casually taught compared which what she knew already from school here.

It really is sad what that girl saw in that excursion. But at least, she didn't mention that anyone laughed his/her ass off.
Foofie
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2014 10:33 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Advocate wrote:
Perhaps there should be studies on whether modern-day Germans and Japanese are any better than their ancestors.
Perhaps you should promote a new war on us? Or be ashamed that not all Germans have been killed in WWII?


In my opinion, the anti-Semitism that was noted is just a way to ameliorate the feeling, that must still exist today, that collectively Jews are more successful than non-Jews, and to live with the envy, anti-Semitism teaches that one would rather be a neer-do-well non-Jew, than a successful Jew. I do not see prejudice for many groups going anywhere, since envy is only ameliorated with a firm belief that one would rather be without supposed special talents than be one of the pariah group.

All that the incident teaches, in my opinion, is that Jews are still perceived as a group to obtain Schadenfreude from, if they lose their favored/successful position. From the "mouths of babes."

I don't think you appreciate the perception many in the western world have of Germany today. In my opinion, Germany is valued as the source of good air conditioners, aspirins, and cars, etc.; however, the country might have lost its ability to have the moral high ground on the world stage for a few hundred years, due to the excesses in the first half of the 20th century. Take Sweden for example. Who would think that they were once very warlike, and blonded much of Europe. Time is the great healer. One cannot be impatient, in my opinion.
 

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