Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

@djjd62,

The Germans, the French, the Poles, the Hungarians, the Russians, the Italians......

Don't be so childish about Walter, please. Just to remind you, not every person who is against the actions of Israel is anti-semitic.
In fact, most of us are not.

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@McTag,

ummm, i was being childish to advocate, i got no beef with walter

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@Advocate,

There you go again. Same old same old mental blindness.

BBB

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@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

I said what I did about Walter because of the many half-truths and outright false statements from him about Israel. Also, in my opinion, he has conscientiously avoided making any fair and accurate statement about the nation. Of couse, I could say this about a number of other posters in this thread.

I guess this particularly rankles me with respect to Walter because he is German. After all, it was the Germans who were such incredible beasts before and during WWII toward the Jews and so many other groups.

I just think Germans were captives of a society that discovered nationalism later than other nations, and were captives to the Nazi philosophy. Actually, I have read that the Germans required years of indoctrination to be effective anti-Semites. Other Europeans did not need years of indoctrination.

In fact, if one grades intelligence based on how well one can use one's human resources, Germans may come up short, since as Nazis they had no better idea than enslave people and work them to death. Not a good long-range human resources policy, I believe. Russians, for all their historical anti-Semitism, still utilized Jews to the betterment of Mother Russia. So, who is smarter?

Also, if someone is not pro-Israel, I do not take that as "a priori" anti-Semitism. I just figure there might be an unwillingness to empathize with many Zionists' position that the world needs a safe haven for Jews. That would not automatically reflect anti-Semitism; it might be a product of idealistic thinking that the world can overcome two millenia of intractable Jew hating. Or, just because a person could care less what happens to Jews, it does not reflect anti-Semitism; it could reflect a world-wide historical attitude that Jews are expendable as a group. In effect, Jews, in my opinion, should not lose the "thick skin" that their ancestors had, since being a Jew never won popularity contests.

Plus, it it becomes popular to love Jews, they may then eventually disappear through intermarriage. Am I sort of seeing that trend? Or, is there just another stereotype that many Jews make good (help)mates?

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@McTag,

McTag wrote:

The Germans, the French, the Poles, the Hungarians, the Russians, the Italians......

Don't be so childish about Walter, please. Just to remind you, not every person who is against the actions of Israel is anti-semitic.
In fact, most of us are not.

Good point. However, when the average person is not interested in the current events of most nations, but some individuals seem to obsess about Israel's supposed machinations, it could mean that that obsessive interest reflects some issues about Jews. You know, perhaps something like, Jews should always remain small time players on the world stage? People of Christian (historically) and Moslem (currently) backgrounds often are not anti-Semites per se; however, I do think more than a few nice Gentiles suffer from the popular cultural obsession of Judeophobia (what might the Jews be up to now?).

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

I do think more than a few nice Gentiles suffer from the popular cultural obsession of Judeophobia (what might the Jews be up to now?).

setting this falls tv schedule Razz

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@Foofie,

Quote:

Good point. However, when the average person is not interested in the current events of most nations, but some individuals seem to obsess about Israel's supposed machinations, it could mean that that obsessive interest reflects some issues about Jews. You know, perhaps something like, Jews should always remain small time players on the world stage? People of Christian (historically) and Moslem (currently) backgrounds often are not anti-Semites per se; however, I do think more than a few nice Gentiles suffer from the popular cultural obsession of Judeophobia (what might the Jews be up to now?).

Some truth in some of that, no doubt.
However in this particular thread, the actions of the Israelis comes under scrutiny.
I don't think I ever write "Jews" when I mean Israelis. If I have, I apologise.

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@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

I guess this particularly rankles me with respect to Walter because he is German. After all, it was the Germans who were such incredible beasts before and during WWII toward the Jews and so many other groups.

I agree. I think, all surviving Germans should have been killed after WWII. (Actually, the US mock-killed my father after taking him prisoner. Perhaps, they only didn't really kill him because as medical surgeon he was protected from that by some Geneva Conventions ... Better, they had, isn't it, Advocate? Then you wouldn't have to read my comments.)

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Advocate wrote:

I guess this particularly rankles me with respect to Walter because he is German. After all, it was the Germans who were such incredible beasts before and during WWII toward the Jews and so many other groups.

I agree. I think, all surviving Germans should have been killed after WWII. (Actually, the US mock-killed my father after taking him prisoner. Perhaps, they only didn't really kill him because as medical surgeon he was protected from that by some Geneva Conventions ... Better, they had, isn't it, Advocate? Then you wouldn't have to read my comments.)

I never said or hinted at a view that all Germans should have been exterminated after WWII. You must be thinking about the view of the Germans that all Jews throughout the world should be exterminated.

Daniel Goldhagan, an author and former professor, wrote extensively about the willingness of the average German to cooperate in the holocaust. I don't believe that his work has been refuted.

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:
I guess this particularly rankles me with respect to Walter because he is German. After all, it was the Germans who were such incredible beasts before and during WWII toward the Jews and so many other groups.

At least they've learned, Advocate and have taken many steps to redress those issues. On the other hand, the USA has been an incredible beast to practically everyone for over a century. They've never learned, never apologized, never paid for their crimes.

Really, no I mean really, you shouldn't be calling others beasts when your own beats everyone by a long shot.

You are correct about the actions of this country. We have behaved beastly in Nam and Iraq, and I would like to see some of our leaders tried as war criminals for their actions.

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@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

...Daniel Goldhagan, an author and former professor, wrote extensively about the willingness of the average German to cooperate in the holocaust. I don't believe that his work has been refuted.

And interesting website that offers a view of what the indoctrination included:
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/

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@Foofie,

It's easy to manipulate a population.

After careful propaganda and news manipulation, a large majority of Americans were in favour of bombing Iraq.

A large majority are probably still in favour of interrogation by torture, as long as they are assured that the victims are "terrorists".

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It is also important to understand how the NSDAP manipulated the situation in Germany in 1933 politically, to the point that the Enabling Act was passed--after which it no longer really mattered what anyone else wanted, all that counted thereafter was what Hitler wanted. The German people also suffered horribly from that madness, with estimates of those dead directly as a result of the war running from 8,000,000 at the conservative end to 12,000,000 and even more.

After the passage of the Enabling Act, Germany drifted down slowly into madness. Those who were sufficiently aware to know how badly things were deteriorating were also too well aware of the price which would be paid by anyone who spoke out. Many just didn't want to know, didn't want to face it.

A similar situation exists in Israel with one significant difference. Increasingly, Israelis are questioning the policies of their government, as they recognize that the militarily aggressive policies of one government after another have been, in fact, self-defeating and destructive. The difference is, of course, that Israelis are free to speak out against their government policies, and that is what will, eventually, save them from this madness.

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To that I would add that the Israeli security forces, and individuals within them, treat the Palestinians as Untermenschen. That fact is borne out by newsreel after newsreel.

When that stops (children have to be taught to hate) then progress will become possible.

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There have been news reports, as well, of IDF members refusing duty, and of ordinary Israelis protesting the policies of their governnment. They've got a hell of a long way to go, though.

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@Setanta,

Your comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is ludicrous and reprehensible. You are a true POS.

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@Advocate,

What a fuckin' idiot. I contrasted them, you ignorant, dim-witted goshite. I did so after the subject of how Germans reacted to the NSDAP regime was brought up by our resident loud-mouthed Jew, Foofie "Look at me, Look at me, I'm a Jew and I want to advertise the fact."

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@Advocate,

Quote:

Your comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is ludicrous and reprehensible.

Just as there was all levels of evil in Nazi Germany, so too there are all levels of evil in Israel. Evil is evil. The difference is degree.

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

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