Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

that land *would have been returned already* had the Palestinians only been willing to stop murdering people.

Pointing out that I didn't say what you claim I said is neither dodging nor attempting to change facts.

Nope. My response was quite a bit more than that.

Nope. I'm only disavowing your misleading partial quote of what I wrote.

I do not disavow my reply as it exists in its entirety.

Setanta wrote:

You aren't pointing out basic history.

Yes I am.

Setanta wrote:

You willfully ignore what i've pointed out all along, which is that other people lived there, too, before the Romans ran the Jews out,

No. I did not ignore that.

Setanta wrote:

and after that had been done. I didn't mention any claims of Muslim and Roman/Xian invaders. You have put that in quotes, implying that you are quoting me. That's a lie, and that makes you a liar.

Actually, the reason for the quotes was so that people with limited reading comprehension would not misunderstand the structure of the sentence.

Setanta wrote:

You steadfastly ignore the valid points that i have made--that Bedu have lived there as long as or longer than the Jews, that Aramaeans lived there, that Hellenistic people lived there (from many ethnic origins).

Nope. Didn't ignore those.

Setanta wrote:

It is arbitrary and capricious for you to decide that any claims other than those made by modern Zionist Jews have no validity.

Again, the only claims that I am saying have no validity are those of the Muslim and Roman/Xian invaders.

Setanta wrote:

I've pointed out fact after fact that you've gotten wrong, notably but not limited to your "repossess stolen property" bullshit.

Nope. You cannot point out a single fact I've gotten wrong anywhere.

That said, I think it would derail the thread if we hashed out all the points on other threads that you mistakenly believe I am somehow wrong on. Or if I pointed out all the things that you've gotten wrong on other threads.

We've seen what happens when Israeli governments negotiate in good faith. They get a wave of Palestinians murdering Israeli children until the negotiations collapse, and then they get people falsely claiming that they never negotiated in good faith.

It is true that Israel is not taking current negotiations seriously. But that is because the current round of negotiations are nor worth taking seriously.

Setanta wrote:

I'm sure you were quite happy to see thousands of Lebanese non-combatants killed and wounded. It's consistent with the character of the things you post here. Of course, the IDF did not put Hezbollah out of business, they did not secure the release of the IDF members whose seizure was the casus belli, and the entire operations was conducted in a ham-handed manner, even to the point where IDF units did not have sufficient water and rations.

Well, putting a guerrilla operation out of business is easier said than done, especially with conventional military forces.

And as I recall the IDF members were actually murdered in the initial attack, and were already dead through the entire war. (I didn't double check that, so I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.)

I certainly don't fault the IDF for failing to achieve the impossible.

Setanta wrote:

But by god, they sure slaughtered lots of Lebanese men, women and children. Let's have a big round of applause for the IDF.

Now THAT I can agree with.

Lebanon does seem to have learned their lesson. (Knock on wood.)

Israel was attacked time and time again from Southern Lebanon and Syria. Thus, Israel had an absolute right to take those lands as prizes of war.

oralloy wrote:

We've seen what happens when Israeli governments negotiate in good faith. They get a wave of Palestinians murdering Israeli children until the negotiations collapse, and then they get people falsely claiming that they never negotiated in good faith.

It is true that Israel is not taking current negotiations seriously. But that is because the current round of negotiations are nor worth taking seriously.

Self-justifying codswallop. Don't you ever get tired of you exercises in halo-polishing? Just about no one here other than that fanatic Advocate is buying your bullshit. The Israelis have consistently ignored the UN resolution, stolen land, slaughtered Palestinians directly or through proxies, and negotiated in bad faith.

If it has resulted in the deaths of Israeli children, the blame can be laid at the door of their own government, who have prepared the ground since 1947.

oralloy wrote:

Setanta wrote:

I'm sure you were quite happy to see thousands of Lebanese non-combatants killed and wounded. It's consistent with the character of the things you post here. Of course, the IDF did not put Hezbollah out of business, they did not secure the release of the IDF members whose seizure was the casus belli, and the entire operations was conducted in a ham-handed manner, even to the point where IDF units did not have sufficient water and rations.

Well, putting a guerrilla operation out of business is easier said than done, especially with conventional military forces.

And as I recall the IDF members were actually murdered in the initial attack, and were already dead through the entire war. (I didn't double check that, so I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.)

I certainly don't fault the IDF for failing to achieve the impossible.

So, Mr. "I deal in fact" now acknowledges that he relies upon faulty recollection. The rest of us have known that for a long time--apparently longer than you have.

Once again, Mr. Facts, you're woefully ill-informed. The UN resolution to which i referred was General Assembly Resolution 181 (1947). I made no reference to any security council resolutions.

It's hardly worth the effort to attempt debate with someone so profoundly ignorant of the subject.

The Israelis have consistently ignored the UN resolution, stolen land, slaughtered Palestinians directly or through proxies, and negotiated in bad faith.

If it has resulted in the deaths of Israeli children, the blame can be laid at the door of their own government, who have prepared the ground since 1947.

My replies are calm. You're projecting your desire to categorize in a manner which in fact suggests that i am not reacting in a logical manner. This time, rather than alleging anger, you're alleging that i'm an intellectual bully. You're a mess.

Foofie wrote:

Well, as most Jews understand, social status is an exclusive WASP game, and if one is not a WASP, "yer out."

You're joking, right? (Or, you really have no idea about the social states of Jews - within the Jewish society, today and in history - outside your soup bowl.)

Foofie, I guess Walter put you in your place. After all, Walter is an expert in the culture of Jews, among many, many, other things. Most anti-Semites are.

My replies are calm. You're projecting your desire to categorize in a manner which in fact suggests that i am not reacting in a logical manner. This time, rather than alleging anger, you're alleging that i'm an intellectual bully. You're a mess.

I said the UN resolution, no a UN resolution. Anyone who is well-informed about the history of the region would know what that means.

I am not indulging "ad hominems" (an essentially meaningless bit of online babble) by pointing out that you are profoundly ignorant on this topic

you've demonstrated that again and again.

I guess this particularly rankles me with respect to Walter because he is German. After all, it was the Germans who were such incredible beasts before and during WWII toward the Jews and so many other groups.

I guess this particularly rankles me with respect to Walter because he is German. After all, it was the Germans who were such incredible beasts before and during WWII toward the Jews and so many other groups.